2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Jolle
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:58 pm
But will we get two stroke engines like Pat Symonds suggested?
I don’t think Daimler, FCA and Renault will invest billions into a concept that is still in prototype stadium and will be obsolete before it can hit the market.

Rodak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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subfire91 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:56 pm
i would love to see where hydrogen leads them :D :D

but thats just a big wish, it wont happen, at least soon.

But i do believe its the future though
Hydrogen as a race fuel has been discussed in depth in other posts. There are too many problems with hydrogen as a racing fuel; it will never happen. For liquid hydrogen there is the volume problem and there is the storage of a cryogenic liquid problem or, if you want to use gaseous hydrogen, there is the huge volume problem and the pressure tank in a race car problem.

Briefly, liquid hydrogen has an energy density of 8.5 MJ/L vs gasoline (petrol) at 34.2 MJ/L so you need about four times the volume to produce the same energy as gasoline. Current rules are 100 kg of petrol, about 130 L, so you would need to carry about 520 L of liquid hydrogen for the same amount of energy release. Yes, it would be lighter at about 36 kg. It also takes energy to heat the cryogenic liquid to a room temperature gas for combustion, not to mention the pressurized cryogenic storage tank....

NL_Fer
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:58 pm
But will we get two stroke engines like Pat Symonds suggested?
The technology is great, but seems to best in a 3 cilinder setup, delivers power like a 4-stroke 6 cilinder. So probably only useable for high power applications like trucks and long range busses.

a V4 would make it easier for a split turbo mgu-k inside the V, because it is a shorter block.

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RedNEO
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Jolle wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 5:38 pm
mzso wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:58 pm
But will we get two stroke engines like Pat Symonds suggested?
I don’t think Daimler, FCA and Renault will invest billions into a concept that is still in prototype stadium and will be obsolete before it can hit the market.
It will not be obsolete. Politics won’t be able to stop manufacturers from moving this forward and with it being sustainable they can’t do anything about it.
Last edited by RedNEO on Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jolle
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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RedNEO wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:56 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 5:38 pm
mzso wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:58 pm
But will we get two stroke engines like Pat Symonds suggested?
I don’t think Daimler, FCA and Renault will invest billions into a concept that is still in prototype stadium and will be obsolete before it can hit the market.
It will not be obsolete. Politics is won’t be able to stop manufacturers from moving this forward and with it being sustainable they can’t do anything about it.
The big European car manufacturers already stated a few years ago they stopped development of internal combustion engines in favour of EV’s. Nothing to do with politics.

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RedNEO
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Jolle wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:33 pm
RedNEO wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:56 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 5:38 pm


I don’t think Daimler, FCA and Renault will invest billions into a concept that is still in prototype stadium and will be obsolete before it can hit the market.
It will not be obsolete. Politics is won’t be able to stop manufacturers from moving this forward and with it being sustainable they can’t do anything about it.
The big European car manufacturers already stated a few years ago they stopped development of internal combustion engines in favour of EV’s. Nothing to do with politics.
It has everything to do with politics. Not sure what big manufacturers you are referring to because if you look today combustion engines are very much part of there plans.

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mclaren111
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Big Business & Politics are One and the Same... A Sad reality of modern life...

I really hope the ICE can survive in motorsport... Compared to other pollutors, motorsports are hardly making it on the radar...

Road Car & Trucks is a different thing and understandable for the need to improve...

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Blackout
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Rodak wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:51 pm
subfire91 wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:56 pm
i would love to see where hydrogen leads them :D :D

but thats just a big wish, it wont happen, at least soon.

But i do believe its the future though
Hydrogen as a race fuel has been discussed in depth in other posts. There are too many problems with hydrogen as a racing fuel; it will never happen. For liquid hydrogen there is the volume problem and there is the storage of a cryogenic liquid problem or, if you want to use gaseous hydrogen, there is the huge volume problem and the pressure tank in a race car problem.

Briefly, liquid hydrogen has an energy density of 8.5 MJ/L vs gasoline (petrol) at 34.2 MJ/L so you need about four times the volume to produce the same energy as gasoline. Current rules are 100 kg of petrol, about 130 L, so you would need to carry about 520 L of liquid hydrogen for the same amount of energy release. Yes, it would be lighter at about 36 kg. It also takes energy to heat the cryogenic liquid to a room temperature gas for combustion, not to mention the pressurized cryogenic storage tank....
These scientists are working on a "hydrogen paste" that could solve some of these problems :P
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tec ... -institut/

Rodak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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These scientists are working on a "hydrogen paste" that could solve some of these problems :P
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tec ... -institut/
These types of storage media do not solve the volume problem, they exacerbate it, requiring even greater volume and weight for storage; there is also the problem of the extraction rate of hydrogen from the storage matrix.

And how is hydrogen made? There are three methods, cracking methane, steam reforming methane, and electrolysis - breaking water into hydrogen and oxygen. The first two methods require heat and, obviously, methane; methane cracking is not yet an industrial process. Electrolysis requires electricity, and lots of it. So how are these production methods helpful in reducing carbon footprint or our dependence on fossil fuels?

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Stu
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Rodak wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:31 pm
These scientists are working on a "hydrogen paste" that could solve some of these problems :P
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tec ... -institut/
These types of storage media do not solve the volume problem, they exacerbate it, requiring even greater volume and weight for storage; there is also the problem of the extraction rate of hydrogen from the storage matrix.

And how is hydrogen made? There are three methods, cracking methane, steam reforming methane, and electrolysis - breaking water into hydrogen and oxygen. The first two methods require heat and, obviously, methane; methane cracking is not yet an industrial process. Electrolysis requires electricity, and lots of it. So how are these production methods helpful in reducing carbon footprint or our dependence on fossil fuels?
The theory with the electrolysis process is that in most countries where renewables are used they only generate for the grid when demand exceeds the ‘background’ supply (fossil, nuclear, etc) which cannot be switched off. At these times any energy potential from the renewable source could be used to create hydrogen (effectively using it to store the energy - a battery.....).
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

gruntguru
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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RedNEO wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:25 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:33 pm
RedNEO wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:56 pm


It will not be obsolete. Politics is won’t be able to stop manufacturers from moving this forward and with it being sustainable they can’t do anything about it.
The big European car manufacturers already stated a few years ago they stopped development of internal combustion engines in favour of EV’s. Nothing to do with politics.
It has everything to do with politics. Not sure what big manufacturers you are referring to because if you look today combustion engines are very much part of there plans.
Would you like to share any those plans with us?
je suis charlie

gruntguru
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Stu wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:19 pm
Rodak wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:31 pm
These scientists are working on a "hydrogen paste" that could solve some of these problems :P
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tec ... -institut/
These types of storage media do not solve the volume problem, they exacerbate it, requiring even greater volume and weight for storage; there is also the problem of the extraction rate of hydrogen from the storage matrix.

And how is hydrogen made? There are three methods, cracking methane, steam reforming methane, and electrolysis - breaking water into hydrogen and oxygen. The first two methods require heat and, obviously, methane; methane cracking is not yet an industrial process. Electrolysis requires electricity, and lots of it. So how are these production methods helpful in reducing carbon footprint or our dependence on fossil fuels?
The theory with the electrolysis process is that in most countries where renewables are used they only generate for the grid when demand exceeds the ‘background’ supply (fossil, nuclear, etc) which cannot be switched off. At these times any energy potential from the renewable source could be used to create hydrogen (effectively using it to store the energy - a battery.....).
If the future is conversion of renewable energy (eg solar or wind) to motive power in a car, the hydrogen cycle has to compete with battery technology which has a round-trip efficiency of 70% - 90% compared to perhaps 50% for the hydrogen cycle.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en ... efficiency
je suis charlie

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Blackout
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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An I3 engine? I would prefer a V4... or a flat 4 :idea: :P :P
A 'symmetrical' layout, with the intake at the top and the exhaust at the bottom.
Image

http://www.smcars.net/attachments/21-jpg.55166/

I3 is 'messier' (not saying Kev's car is messy, no it's very cool, but a flat 4 or a V4 turbo/supercharged would be neater and tider packaging-wise)
Image

https://racecarsdirect.com/content/User ... 12.jpg?v=1

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:44 pm
Jolle wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:27 pm
With ICE being phased out entirely in the car industry (although many will be “what about fuel cells, bio fuel etc”, there are nog big manufacturers that are backing this movement) its not logical that a new type of ICE is going to be developed for F1. I think it’s more a political move or fantasy as we all transition into electric motors.
But we are judging this on todays I.C.E. If we can develop a very low (I am not going to say no as it will not happen) emission unit and also renewable fuel to 'burn' in it things may change. If it going to happen, the most likely place is in F1
It will still be only 15-30% efficient compared to 85% or more for an EV. The only way to go beyond that is to add electric motors like they did in F1. So there's no point to keeping ICE around when EVs get adequate storage (which already happened for road cars).

NL_Fer
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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I believe the teams and Fia are already looking at another 4 stroke combustion engine, running on bio/synthetic fuel with electric assistance. So why discuss full EV vs H2 ?

Interesting is, will we see a return of Exhaust Heat recovery or MGU-H? It is very usefull for charging the ERS and as an antilag device. But it kills the exhaust sound and makes the engine more expensive.

If they decide to include a MGU-H it should be frozen design or spec unit, to keep the development cost down.