2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:41 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:11 pm
Jambier wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:09 pm


That the worst on this situation: Mercedes is doing the better job and so deserve to win... but this is awful when you want to see other results :mrgreen:
As long as it has been a good fight I don't really car who wins as long as it is a straight (non political fight).

Having said that though I do feel I would like to see Lewis win this year just to get the record of titles, after that, bring em all on. I'm sure Max will get a string probably over the next 3 years.
That might or might not be the case over the next decade. I think a lot depends on how the new aero rules effect how closely the cars can race. If the racing is close it might be like the 60's through the early 80's again where everything was a lot more variable!

look at back to back wdcs

if you look at 3 or more you only have:

1954-1957 Juan Manuel Fangio
2000-2004 Michael Schumacher
2010-2013 Sebastian Vettel
2017-2020 Lewis Hamilton

if you look at 2 or more you have:

1952-1953 Alberto Ascari
1954-1957 Juan Manuel Fangio
1959-1960 Jack Brabham
1985-1986 Alain Prost
1990-1991 Ayrton Senna
1994-1995 Michael Schumacher
1998-1999 Mika Häkkinen
2000-2004 Michael Schumacher
2005-2006 Fernando Alonso
2010-2013 Sebastian Vettel
2014-2015 Lewis Hamilton
2017-2020 Lewis Hamilton

A big gap exists between Jack and Alain when no driver could win consistently.
But in that era, wasn’t that down to reliability, as opposed to competitiveness in pace between cars?

Things became more and more reliable.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:46 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:41 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:11 pm


As long as it has been a good fight I don't really car who wins as long as it is a straight (non political fight).

Having said that though I do feel I would like to see Lewis win this year just to get the record of titles, after that, bring em all on. I'm sure Max will get a string probably over the next 3 years.
That might or might not be the case over the next decade. I think a lot depends on how the new aero rules effect how closely the cars can race. If the racing is close it might be like the 60's through the early 80's again where everything was a lot more variable!

look at back to back wdcs

if you look at 3 or more you only have:

1954-1957 Juan Manuel Fangio
2000-2004 Michael Schumacher
2010-2013 Sebastian Vettel
2017-2020 Lewis Hamilton

if you look at 2 or more you have:

1952-1953 Alberto Ascari
1954-1957 Juan Manuel Fangio
1959-1960 Jack Brabham
1985-1986 Alain Prost
1990-1991 Ayrton Senna
1994-1995 Michael Schumacher
1998-1999 Mika Häkkinen
2000-2004 Michael Schumacher
2005-2006 Fernando Alonso
2010-2013 Sebastian Vettel
2014-2015 Lewis Hamilton
2017-2020 Lewis Hamilton

A big gap exists between Jack and Alain when no driver could win consistently.
But in that era, wasn’t that down to reliability, as opposed to competitiveness in pace between cars?

Things became more and more reliable.
You need to remember that's from 1950 to 1990 only your best results counted. Each season a given number of your worst results would be dropped. That did a lot to even out reliability issues!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_O ... _methods_2
At certain points between 1950 and 1990, drivers' points for the season would be tallied based on their best results across the World Championship, which varied from 4 to 11 in a season, and during the late 1960s and 1970s points would be tallied based on their best results from each half of the season, which varied from four to seven. This was done in order to equalise the footings of teams which may not have had the wherewithal to compete in all events. With the advent of the Concorde Agreements, this practice has been discontinued, though it did feature prominently in several world championships through the 1970s and 1980s, primarily in 1988 when Alain Prost had 105 points to Ayrton Senna's 94, but due to only the best 11 results counting towards the World Championship, Senna won, with the final points tally being 90–87.
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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:54 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:46 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:41 pm


That might or might not be the case over the next decade. I think a lot depends on how the new aero rules effect how closely the cars can race. If the racing is close it might be like the 60's through the early 80's again where everything was a lot more variable!

look at back to back wdcs

if you look at 3 or more you only have:

1954-1957 Juan Manuel Fangio
2000-2004 Michael Schumacher
2010-2013 Sebastian Vettel
2017-2020 Lewis Hamilton

if you look at 2 or more you have:

1952-1953 Alberto Ascari
1954-1957 Juan Manuel Fangio
1959-1960 Jack Brabham
1985-1986 Alain Prost
1990-1991 Ayrton Senna
1994-1995 Michael Schumacher
1998-1999 Mika Häkkinen
2000-2004 Michael Schumacher
2005-2006 Fernando Alonso
2010-2013 Sebastian Vettel
2014-2015 Lewis Hamilton
2017-2020 Lewis Hamilton

A big gap exists between Jack and Alain when no driver could win consistently.
But in that era, wasn’t that down to reliability, as opposed to competitiveness in pace between cars?

Things became more and more reliable.
You need to remember that's from 1950 to 1990 only your best results counted. Each season a given number of your worst results would be dropped. That did a lot to even out reliability issues!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_O ... _methods_2
At certain points between 1950 and 1990, drivers' points for the season would be tallied based on their best results across the World Championship, which varied from 4 to 11 in a season, and during the late 1960s and 1970s points would be tallied based on their best results from each half of the season, which varied from four to seven. This was done in order to equalise the footings of teams which may not have had the wherewithal to compete in all events. With the advent of the Concorde Agreements, this practice has been discontinued, though it did feature prominently in several world championships through the 1970s and 1980s, primarily in 1988 when Alain Prost had 105 points to Ayrton Senna's 94, but due to only the best 11 results counting towards the World Championship, Senna won, with the final points tally being 90–87.
True, I haven’t looked into this area. I’m still hesitant to say it was a consistently very competitive era in racing. I’m sure I read about Clark losing a season because more than half his results were DNF. But that’s only off the top of my head. If you have invested good time and done home work on this to say the lap times were very competitive, then I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt

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siskue2005
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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So now what will Horner say next race, back to engine sensor plenum?🤔

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dans79
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:00 pm
True, I haven’t looked into this area. I’m still hesitant to say it was a consistently very competitive era in racing. I’m sure I read about Clark losing a season because more than half his results were DNF. But that’s only off the top of my head. If you have invested good time and done home work on this to say the lap times were very competitive, then I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt
You are probably thinking of 66 when finished 6th in the championship. He retired 5 times and didn't start a race (the season was only 9 races). Two of those 6 issues were accidents though.

Graham Hill, Denny Hulme & John Surtees who all finished in front of him had 5 retirements. Imo, it was just a bad year for Jim.
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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:21 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:00 pm
True, I haven’t looked into this area. I’m still hesitant to say it was a consistently very competitive era in racing. I’m sure I read about Clark losing a season because more than half his results were DNF. But that’s only off the top of my head. If you have invested good time and done home work on this to say the lap times were very competitive, then I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt
You are probably thinking of 66 when finished 6th in the championship. He retired 5 times and didn't start a race (the season was only 9 races). Two of those 6 issues were accidents though.

Graham Hill, Denny Hulme & John Surtees who all finished in front of him had 5 retirements. Imo, it was just a bad year for Jim.
Im thinking of 62 when he came 2nd. was half of those DNF's accidents / crashes?

you see what I mean though. The mixed results have a number of variables behind them, I haven't the energy to go digging through those years but I've learned from other seasons not to jump to hasty conclusions about final standings and champions.

The 2007 season is one where many fans till this day still feel Alonso's close finish to Raikkonen and Hamilton was on merit of what he did on track.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:58 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:21 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:00 pm
True, I haven’t looked into this area. I’m still hesitant to say it was a consistently very competitive era in racing. I’m sure I read about Clark losing a season because more than half his results were DNF. But that’s only off the top of my head. If you have invested good time and done home work on this to say the lap times were very competitive, then I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt
You are probably thinking of 66 when finished 6th in the championship. He retired 5 times and didn't start a race (the season was only 9 races). Two of those 6 issues were accidents though.

Graham Hill, Denny Hulme & John Surtees who all finished in front of him had 5 retirements. Imo, it was just a bad year for Jim.
Im thinking of 62 when he came 2nd. was half of those DNF's accidents / crashes?
The was the first season for the lotus 25, it was very fast over 1 lap, but it was super delicate. He finished second, because the BRM hill drove thats year was exceptionally reliable. It was the only car to not have a dnf that season if memory serves.
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Marty_Y
Marty_Y
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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_cerber1 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:21 am


I wonder what kind of equipment Toto is talking about?
I think he's referring to the Brazil engine when he talks about "spicy equipment", or at least that's how I interpreted it.

He mentions it in a interview with sky that I posted in the race thread.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... equipment/

Wolff warns Red Bull: ‘Spicy equipment’ on the way
Date published: November 22 2021 - Jon Wilde
“Saudi should be a good track for us, but we know this year when you think it’s a good one it can turn the other way around,” said Wolff, the Mercedes team principal, on Sky F1.

“But it’s a long straight, we’ll get our spicy equipment (engine) out for Saudi Arabia that we didn’t use (in Qatar) and hopefully Valtteri (Bottas) is right up there – we need him. But in any case, if everyone finishes the race it will go to Abu Dhabi.”

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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Marty_Y wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:48 pm
_cerber1 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:21 am


I wonder what kind of equipment Toto is talking about?
I think he's referring to the Brazil engine when he talks about "spicy equipment", or at least that's how I interpreted it.

He mentions it in a interview with sky that I posted in the race thread.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... equipment/

Wolff warns Red Bull: ‘Spicy equipment’ on the way
Date published: November 22 2021 - Jon Wilde
“Saudi should be a good track for us, but we know this year when you think it’s a good one it can turn the other way around,” said Wolff, the Mercedes team principal, on Sky F1.

“But it’s a long straight, we’ll get our spicy equipment (engine) out for Saudi Arabia that we didn’t use (in Qatar) and hopefully Valtteri (Bottas) is right up there – we need him. But in any case, if everyone finishes the race it will go to Abu Dhabi.”
I saw the interview and thought he said 'Spikey' engine? Not that I understand either reference but 'Spikey' sounds nastier. :twisted:
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Here is an interesting take on why Merc has been faster the last 2 races!

Merc got faster relative to the rest of the field, while Redbull got slower! And as has been mentioned the last two tracks are front limited!

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Any of the tech geeks dettect any difference in sound between Lewis' and Vatteri's engines in Brazil?

Surely it must sound different if it's making more power and more noises.

I get the feeling that ICE has a new type of fuel in it that was to be used for 2022.
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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:14 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:58 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:21 pm


You are probably thinking of 66 when finished 6th in the championship. He retired 5 times and didn't start a race (the season was only 9 races). Two of those 6 issues were accidents though.

Graham Hill, Denny Hulme & John Surtees who all finished in front of him had 5 retirements. Imo, it was just a bad year for Jim.
Im thinking of 62 when he came 2nd. was half of those DNF's accidents / crashes?
The was the first season for the lotus 25, it was very fast over 1 lap, but it was super delicate. He finished second, because the BRM hill drove thats year was exceptionally reliable. It was the only car to not have a dnf that season if memory serves.
See what I mean? if all cars were roughly reliable, how close were they competitively? look at Alonso in .. 2012, he almost denied Vettel a title, certainly Hamilton's chance, because he had the best car reliability wise that year. The RB and Mclaren were just having failures, especially the McLaren.

My gut is, F1 has for most of its history, had a challenge keeping the competitive order condense.

Marty_Y
Marty_Y
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:52 pm
Marty_Y wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:48 pm
_cerber1 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:21 am


I wonder what kind of equipment Toto is talking about?
I think he's referring to the Brazil engine when he talks about "spicy equipment", or at least that's how I interpreted it.

He mentions it in a interview with sky that I posted in the race thread.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... equipment/

Wolff warns Red Bull: ‘Spicy equipment’ on the way
Date published: November 22 2021 - Jon Wilde
“Saudi should be a good track for us, but we know this year when you think it’s a good one it can turn the other way around,” said Wolff, the Mercedes team principal, on Sky F1.

“But it’s a long straight, we’ll get our spicy equipment (engine) out for Saudi Arabia that we didn’t use (in Qatar) and hopefully Valtteri (Bottas) is right up there – we need him. But in any case, if everyone finishes the race it will go to Abu Dhabi.”
I saw the interview and thought he said 'Spikey' engine? Not that I understand either reference but 'Spikey' sounds nastier. :twisted:
I know what you mean, I think it's just his Austrian accent.

The spicy reference is probably because he means the Brazil engine has something a bit extra or a bit hot, as opposed to the normal plain engine.

Maybe this is because historically spices had to be imported by sailing them half way round the world, so they were very expensive and not cheaply available to average people. So something spicy was something that was special and not bland or plain.

Spikey or spiky in English slang sometimes is used to describe a person,
British, informal : tending to become angry or annoyed easily. He has a spiky personality.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Marty_Y wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:25 pm
I know what you mean, I think it's just his Austrian accent.

The spicy reference is probably because he means the Brazil engine has something a bit extra or a bit hot, as opposed to the normal plain engine.

Maybe this is because historically spices had to be imported by sailing them half way round the world, so they were very expensive and not cheaply available to average people. So something spicy was something that was special and not bland or plain.

Spikey or spiky in English slang sometimes is used to describe a person,
British, informal : tending to become angry or annoyed easily. He has a spiky personality.
I was thinking it was just a well disguised swipe at Horner. Let's not forget who he is married to, a spice girl (aka Ginger Spice)!
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Marty_Y
Marty_Y
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:28 pm
Marty_Y wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:25 pm
I know what you mean, I think it's just his Austrian accent.

The spicy reference is probably because he means the Brazil engine has something a bit extra or a bit hot, as opposed to the normal plain engine.

Maybe this is because historically spices had to be imported by sailing them half way round the world, so they were very expensive and not cheaply available to average people. So something spicy was something that was special and not bland or plain.

Spikey or spiky in English slang sometimes is used to describe a person,
British, informal : tending to become angry or annoyed easily. He has a spiky personality.
I was thinking it was just a well disguised swipe at Horner. Let's not forget who he is married to, a spice girl (aka Ginger Spice)!
LOL, that never crossed my mind.