2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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The next normal circuit is Paul Ricard, and Mercedes has traditionally been very strong there, hopefully lessons learned can be applied and whatever updates are in the pipeline are fleshed out by then. It will also be the last race on the current spec Honda engine. Let's see if they can unlock more potential on the next unit.

*Edit: never mind I forgot they canceled Canada and now we go to Turkey.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Phil wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 4:02 pm
Personally, I think Checo is the right man for that seat and IMO Verstappen will learn a thing or to from him. Verstappen may be experienced and well seasoned, but he is also rather young. A driver like Perez who is known for being consistent and also extremely good on tires is something that Verstappen can still benefit from. Not suggesting Max isn't good - but tire wear is an issue that could either be down to traits of the car, or to some degree how Max drives and extracts his performance. Or somewhere in between.

It will be interesting if and when Checo gets better at driving the car, if and how his tire management compares against Verstappen. Will he be better at conserving them? At what pace?

Speed is not something Max lacks. So putting an equally fast young driver next to him is probably not something that will be huge benefit.
I am curious to see a race with Checo and Max starting on front row to see how they get on against each other lap for lap.
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Mr.S
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I have liked Perez ever since he started but he is nowhere near an elite driver. He is an Alpine/Racing Point type driver. Over the course of this season, through qualifying & over much of the race, he was just too slow. Only once did he qualify well & then he screwed up in the initial laps. His race pace was also just too slow vs Max.

Horner is right in this case. Hamilton could have never have tried this if they have Perez up there trying a 1 stop holding Hamilton or if Perez had the speed, they could have tried the undercut. RBR can't win with 1 Drivers against 2 of Mercedes. Perez is better than Albon but way off Max. In Qualifying, it was shoulder but why was he slow during the race?

Tyre Management issues are over-rated. How many Podiums did Perez win due to Tyre Management in this season? These issues are secondary once you have the speed. RBR need a 1-2 in Monaco & Perez has to beat Hamilton. Unfortunately, there are no guys available currently. Russel will go to Mercedes probably & the rest are tied till 2022.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:48 am
Phil wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 4:02 pm
Personally, I think Checo is the right man for that seat and IMO Verstappen will learn a thing or to from him. Verstappen may be experienced and well seasoned, but he is also rather young. A driver like Perez who is known for being consistent and also extremely good on tires is something that Verstappen can still benefit from. Not suggesting Max isn't good - but tire wear is an issue that could either be down to traits of the car, or to some degree how Max drives and extracts his performance. Or somewhere in between.

It will be interesting if and when Checo gets better at driving the car, if and how his tire management compares against Verstappen. Will he be better at conserving them? At what pace?

Speed is not something Max lacks. So putting an equally fast young driver next to him is probably not something that will be huge benefit.
I am curious to see a race with Checo and Max starting on front row to see how they get on against each other lap for lap.
Checo would let max through no doubt. Easiest way to get an extension.

Curbstone
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 12:14 am
Food for thought, in Portimao, both Hamilton and Verstappen used the hard tires, easy one stop, no pace difference to the medium, Verstappen could stay within touching distance of Hamilton ~5 seconds. In Bahrain, Hamilton won because he used the Hard tire. In Barcelona he won because he used the more tire performance friendly strategy. What was the difference for Verstappen, in both Bahrain and Barcelona? Fear of using the hard tire, the tire that let him do the one stop in Portimao. The same tire was in play in Barcelona, even if the hard was a little slower, it would have made the one stop work, just like it did for Hamilton. Verstappen spent too much time nursing his tires, trying to make a one stop work with the medium was the wrong call, the hard would have done it with no fear of thermal degradation, which is what Verstappen was fighting.

The brutal honest truth, selfishness cost him the win. He tried to beat Mercedes by himself, he called himself into the pits, and he decided to nurse the tires trying to make it to the end. The Red Bull pit crew can do sub 2 second pit stops, they're better than Mercedes in that regard. That's huge, that speed difference will prevent a one lap undercut, and Verstappen didn't have faith in his crew. He was a sitting duck, and strategy could have made a difference had he not tried to win on his own.

Had he copied Hamilton's strategy, the pit crew could have made a difference, he made a quick call and the team wasn't ready, he didn't rely on the team the second time and that's an experience thing. Even if he got stuck behind Bottas, he should have pitted again, he underestimated the power of the undercut, and again, had fear of using the hard tire, even though it proved itself quite durable in Portimao. Turn 10 turned out to be a rear tire killer due to high thermal loads it placed on them, the hard tire would have coped well with that, much better than anticipated.

Oh well, no use dwelling on the past, Monaco is an excellent chance for a 1-2.
Nobody used the hard tire in Barcelona, and it surprises me how you think the hard would have been a good option.
Logically the hard would have been slower than the softs, and I don't see how he would have been able to keep Lewis behind him after that first stop. On those softs Max had to up his pace to keep Lewis behind. His laptime decreases by 1 second as soon as Lewis was back on his tail. In those laps Max had to ask a lot from his tires. If he would have been on Hard tires, he would have had to ask a lot more to keep Lewis behind. That would have burned the tires and maybe not make them last till the end. But I don't think he would have been able to keep Lewis behind. So that would have lost him the race aswell.

Your brutal honest truth is a bit off I guess. The strategy wasn't determined by Max, but is always a team decision. Max didn't pit himself, but misunderstood the timing of the scheduled pitstop.
An undercut is usually worth at least a second (for Lewis it would have have been 2 seconds each lap, just look at the lap charts), it's very difficult/impossible to overcome that difference with a pitstop unless the other team --- up. So it's not realistic to trust on the pitstop speed difference to counter an undercut.
Getting stuck behing Bottas after the first would have cost him a lot more time, time Max never would have had to spare. That would have certainly lost him the race.
Max couldn't counter Lewis his strategy because he had no new second set of mediums, and softs wouldn't have made it 'till the end. Stopping at a later stage for softs would have been possible and I think overtaking Bottas wouldn't be such a problem considering the tire advantage, but I doubt Max would have gotten close to Lewis, let alone be able to overtake him for the win.

I think the only chance Max had would have been countering the strategy of Lewis, but that possibility was lost due a lack of medium tires. If anything made Max lose the win (other than the Mercedes just being the quicker car) it was the choice to have only 1 set of mediums for the race.

wowgr8
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Mr.S wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:29 am
I have liked Perez ever since he started but he is nowhere near an elite driver. He is an Alpine/Racing Point type driver. Over the course of this season, through qualifying & over much of the race, he was just too slow. Only once did he qualify well & then he screwed up in the initial laps. His race pace was also just too slow vs Max.

Horner is right in this case. Hamilton could have never have tried this if they have Perez up there trying a 1 stop holding Hamilton or if Perez had the speed, they could have tried the undercut. RBR can't win with 1 Drivers against 2 of Mercedes. Perez is better than Albon but way off Max. In Qualifying, it was shoulder but why was he slow during the race?

Tyre Management issues are over-rated. How many Podiums did Perez win due to Tyre Management in this season? These issues are secondary once you have the speed. RBR need a 1-2 in Monaco & Perez has to beat Hamilton. Unfortunately, there are no guys available currently. Russel will go to Mercedes probably & the rest are tied till 2022.
It's too soon to be jumping to conclusions when it comes to Perez. 1 second away from Max in Q3 is not representative, and the good thing is that he's learning every weekend, after Spain he said he learned a lot and wished the weekend had only just begun

It's interesting though how a real technical track like Spain exaggerated the gap between he and Max

McMika98
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Redbull started this season as the fastest car, much quicker than Mercedes. It was the opposite of last year where they were behind midfield in a high downforce track like Hungary where they usually dominate. Plus this year they have a solid engine and the launch at starts have been much better.
The second driver needs to qualify P4 and hold position at lap1, the other cars are at least a second slower so no threat after that. If not the race goes away. Perez has no excuse not to get that.

wowgr8
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I agree with that. P4 on the grid should be the minimum. And even once you get that, I feel like hanging with HAM VER BOT over a full race distance will be a huge challenge, let's hope he's got what it takes

NL_Fer
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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After soms though after the race, a two stop wouldn’t make a difference.

Max could have went early for a second stop to his new softs, but Hamilton would than stay out and try a one stop or make a late stop for mediums and pass him like he did on fresher tires.

Max could have copied Hamilton, but than Hamilton would have much longer tire life on his mediums and Max had to pass him on faster wearing softs.

Both options were not much better than the one they chose.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Curbstone wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:01 am
godlameroso wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 12:14 am
Food for thought, in Portimao, both Hamilton and Verstappen used the hard tires, easy one stop, no pace difference to the medium, Verstappen could stay within touching distance of Hamilton ~5 seconds. In Bahrain, Hamilton won because he used the Hard tire. In Barcelona he won because he used the more tire performance friendly strategy. What was the difference for Verstappen, in both Bahrain and Barcelona? Fear of using the hard tire, the tire that let him do the one stop in Portimao. The same tire was in play in Barcelona, even if the hard was a little slower, it would have made the one stop work, just like it did for Hamilton. Verstappen spent too much time nursing his tires, trying to make a one stop work with the medium was the wrong call, the hard would have done it with no fear of thermal degradation, which is what Verstappen was fighting.

The brutal honest truth, selfishness cost him the win. He tried to beat Mercedes by himself, he called himself into the pits, and he decided to nurse the tires trying to make it to the end. The Red Bull pit crew can do sub 2 second pit stops, they're better than Mercedes in that regard. That's huge, that speed difference will prevent a one lap undercut, and Verstappen didn't have faith in his crew. He was a sitting duck, and strategy could have made a difference had he not tried to win on his own.

Had he copied Hamilton's strategy, the pit crew could have made a difference, he made a quick call and the team wasn't ready, he didn't rely on the team the second time and that's an experience thing. Even if he got stuck behind Bottas, he should have pitted again, he underestimated the power of the undercut, and again, had fear of using the hard tire, even though it proved itself quite durable in Portimao. Turn 10 turned out to be a rear tire killer due to high thermal loads it placed on them, the hard tire would have coped well with that, much better than anticipated.

Oh well, no use dwelling on the past, Monaco is an excellent chance for a 1-2.
Nobody used the hard tire in Barcelona, and it surprises me how you think the hard would have been a good option.
Logically the hard would have been slower than the softs, and I don't see how he would have been able to keep Lewis behind him after that first stop. On those softs Max had to up his pace to keep Lewis behind. His laptime decreases by 1 second as soon as Lewis was back on his tail. In those laps Max had to ask a lot from his tires. If he would have been on Hard tires, he would have had to ask a lot more to keep Lewis behind. That would have burned the tires and maybe not make them last till the end. But I don't think he would have been able to keep Lewis behind. So that would have lost him the race aswell.

Your brutal honest truth is a bit off I guess. The strategy wasn't determined by Max, but is always a team decision. Max didn't pit himself, but misunderstood the timing of the scheduled pitstop.
An undercut is usually worth at least a second (for Lewis it would have have been 2 seconds each lap, just look at the lap charts), it's very difficult/impossible to overcome that difference with a pitstop unless the other team --- up. So it's not realistic to trust on the pitstop speed difference to counter an undercut.
Getting stuck behing Bottas after the first would have cost him a lot more time, time Max never would have had to spare. That would have certainly lost him the race.
Max couldn't counter Lewis his strategy because he had no new second set of mediums, and softs wouldn't have made it 'till the end. Stopping at a later stage for softs would have been possible and I think overtaking Bottas wouldn't be such a problem considering the tire advantage, but I doubt Max would have gotten close to Lewis, let alone be able to overtake him for the win.

I think the only chance Max had would have been countering the strategy of Lewis, but that possibility was lost due a lack of medium tires. If anything made Max lose the win (other than the Mercedes just being the quicker car) it was the choice to have only 1 set of mediums for the race.
How do you know the performance of the hard? Is your guess as good as reality?
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Curbstone
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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The harder tire is always slower than a medium tire. That's the principle of the tire designs, and that's a fact not a guess. So yeah, the assumption that Max would have a harder time keeping Lewis behind on the Hard compared to the Medium is as good as reality.
Sure it would have made the one stop work, but it still wouldn't be faster than Lewis.

So in the whole whole F1 circus, with at least a couple of dozen strategist and tire specialists, no one was considering the use of the hard tire. And all those specialist with al lot information and knowledge than you, did not consider it to be worth it to take a gamble on the Hards? And yet to you it is clear the Hard tire should have been used?

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ispano6
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I agree, hard tire is underestimated. High rake cars will put too much energy into softs and mediums, teams need to work to get those hard tires to come alive. Practice sessions are too short now for that though. Teams need to use one car for long run pace.

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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:54 pm
In the race tire wear was much higher than anticipated.
Tyre wear was actually much better than Pirelli estimated, and you'll find several teams saying so in the pre- and post race interviews.
Hamilton didn't change tyres because he thought they'd drop off too much at the end, or he'd run out of tyre, Hamilition changed tyres to give him a massive 1.5-2 second pace delta to make the overtake on Max easy when he caught back up.

If Max had put the hard tyres on Lewis wouldn't even have to bother with that pitstop, he would have had enough delta to get past on the mediums anyway, he was all over Max for most of the race as it was.

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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ispano6 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 2:38 pm
Practice sessions are too short now for that though. Teams need to use one car for long run pace.
And with fixed allocations they can't even take one more set of hards for one of the drivers for that purpose.

Also important to keep in mind that the 'Hard' at one venue isn't necessarily the 'Hard' at another.

In Bahrain it was the C2, here it was the C1, so the 'Medium' in Spain was in fact the 'Hard' from Bahrain - "It [the Hard tyre] worked for Hamilton in Bahrain." ... and it worked well in Spain.

I really miss the old nomenclature with hyper-, ultra-, super-, soft, medium, hard, superhard and as silly as it was, for anyone but the casual viewer it was a lot more informative and we just have five compounds left anyways so it would just need the range from 'supersoft' to 'superhard'.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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RZS10 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:07 pm
In Bahrain it was the C2, here it was the C1, so the 'Medium' in Spain was in fact the 'Hard' from Bahrain - "It [the Hard tyre] worked for Hamilton in Bahrain." ... and it worked well in Spain.
Yep, several things come into play when considering what tires to use.
  • car aero set-up
  • car suspension set-up
  • compounds available
  • track surface
  • track layout
  • mandated minimum tire pressures
  • air temp
  • track temp
  • etc etc
it's all interconnected, and non trivial to work out, hence why the teams have technical centers and war rooms at the track and back at home base crunching the data after every session, and on the fly during the race.
Last edited by dans79 on Tue May 11, 2021 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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