2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AMuS: New information about Max vs Lewis engines. From 12.30 minute on. In German, but you can choose your own subtitels.

Max already has his 4th PU, but how about Lewis? Toto thinks he maybe doesn't need a 4th PU, but Michael Schmidt says:
"At Aston Martin, they tell us that they are convinced that both Vettel and Stroll will need a new engine (PU4).
McLaren also expects new engines for both Norris & Ricciardo." [And Lewis doesn't?]
" Hamilton may get one in Mexico."

The Power of Honda!

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:40 am
I th8nk in redbull's case, the wdc could be more important for their marketing, especially in Holland.
Of course. The only top team which is indifferent to winning the WDC is Williams under Sir Frank. He is quite happy to let world champion drivers wander off elsewhere! :lol:

Certainly for midgrid and backmarker teams though, the revenue from the WCC is much more important than their best WDC placing.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:59 pm
ringo wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:40 am
I th8nk in redbull's case, the wdc could be more important for their marketing, especially in Holland.
Of course. The only top team which is indifferent to winning the WDC is Williams under Sir Frank. He is quite happy to let world champion drivers wander off elsewhere! :lol:

Certainly for midgrid and backmarker teams though, the revenue from the WCC is much more important than their best WDC placing.
Coming second and third in the drivers' title means the team is likely to win the constructors' title (unless the title winner has romped away from everyone and scored silly amounts of points, of course) and so get the team the maximum return. If one driver wins the title and the other is mid table, the team gets much less in return.

This is why Mercedes have always tried to get both cars as far up the grid as possible. Ferrari took the decision back in the Schuie days to favour one driver but they had a huge budget from tobacco advertising so the constructors' title and the revenue from it was less of an issue. Also, they were Ferrari - the most famous car brand in the world so they hardly needed the marketing.

Because Red Bull is basically a marketing organisation (the drink is a western adaptation of an existing Thai product marketed to western markets) they probably see more capital in having a champion driver than a champion car. After all, having Max's smiling face on an advert is likely to sell drinks to people than a picture of a racing car. Every time Max wins, the Red Bull logo is front and centre as seen here:
Image

Mercedes, being a car manufacturer that markets their own products, will want to see the car as being as marketable as the drivers.

Red Bull appear to be following the Ferrari model rather than the Mercedes one.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Edax
Edax
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:13 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:59 pm
ringo wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:40 am
I th8nk in redbull's case, the wdc could be more important for their marketing, especially in Holland.
Of course. The only top team which is indifferent to winning the WDC is Williams under Sir Frank. He is quite happy to let world champion drivers wander off elsewhere! :lol:

Certainly for midgrid and backmarker teams though, the revenue from the WCC is much more important than their best WDC placing.
Coming second and third in the drivers' title means the team is likely to win the constructors' title (unless the title winner has romped away from everyone and scored silly amounts of points, of course) and so get the team the maximum return. If one driver wins the title and the other is mid table, the team gets much less in return.

This is why Mercedes have always tried to get both cars as far up the grid as possible. Ferrari took the decision back in the Schuie days to favour one driver but they had a huge budget from tobacco advertising so the constructors' title and the revenue from it was less of an issue. Also, they were Ferrari - the most famous car brand in the world so they hardly needed the marketing.

Because Red Bull is basically a marketing organisation (the drink is a western adaptation of an existing Thai product marketed to western markets) they probably see more capital in having a champion driver than a champion car. After all, having Max's smiling face on an advert is likely to sell drinks to people than a picture of a racing car. Every time Max wins, the Red Bull logo is front and centre as seen here:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 726%29.jpg

Mercedes, being a car manufacturer that markets their own products, will want to see the car as being as marketable as the drivers.

Red Bull appear to be following the Ferrari model rather than the Mercedes one.
I probably said this before but I don’t believe Ferrari had a choice. It is well documented that Schumacher preferred a very extreme setup. He basically built the car around the front axle. That makes the car very agile, but for most drivers the rear was very unpredictable. Even though mechanics at Benetton and Ferrari weren’t convinced that it was the fastest way they supported his choices because he won races.

https://insideracing.com/formula-1/1144 ... ving-style

But that meant that they neglected the other seat. If you read the comments of for instance Irvine and Letho, they confess that they had a hard time adapting to the car.
Schumacher had three team-mates—JJ Lehto, Jos Verstappen, and Johnny Herbert—during the course of the season. All found the B194 difficult to drive; Verstappen said in 1996 that "I must have a little the same driving style as Johnny because he said basically the same things about that car that I did and seems to have had the same feelings. It was a very difficult car. You could not feel the limit and so you were pushing and pushing and then suddenly it would have oversteer. Normally when you get oversteer you can control it but the Benetton would go very suddenly and so you ended up having a spin. I had big problems with that car."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benetton_B194

I think the exact same thing is happening with max Verstappen. If you hear Verstappen talk, he is always talking about what the front of the car is doing like the back doesn’t exist. And if you hear Gastly, Perez or Albon, they are always talking about the misery the back is giving them.

IMHO it also would not be a coincidence. His father raced with Schumacher so it would not surprise me if he schooled ( or rather raised) his son to drive like Schumacher.

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ringo
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Today's cars are so different than back then, that it's just likely Max just optimized himself around driving a redbull for 6 years.
There seems to be little info about his driving style or preferences outside of him being an early braker and that he is comfortable with neutrality more than his other teammates. He has good feel and reflexes and seems to balance a very nervous car well based on what can be observed in the races.
I hope he gets a top calibre teammate at some point in his career so we can see what happens when he has to dig deep looking for setups.
Maybe Norris or Gasly 2.0.
For Sure!!

flmkane
flmkane
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:33 am
Today's cars are so different than back then, that it's just likely Max just optimized himself around driving a redbull for 6 years.
There seems to be little info about his driving style or preferences outside of him being an early braker and that he is comfortable with neutrality more than his other teammates. He has good feel and reflexes and seems to balance a very nervous car well based on what can be observed in the races.
I hope he gets a top calibre teammate at some point in his career so we can see what happens when he has to dig deep looking for setups.
Maybe Norris or Gasly 2.0.
He had Danny Ric. Ric beat him two out of three seasons, and he lost the last season primarily because of reliability issues.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Edax wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:22 am
Schumacher had three team-mates—JJ Lehto, Jos Verstappen, and Johnny Herbert—during the course of the season. All found the B194 difficult to drive.

I think the exact same thing is happening with max Verstappen. If you hear Verstappen talk, he is always talking about what the front of the car is doing like the back doesn’t exist. And if you hear Gastly, Perez or Albon, they are always talking about the misery the back is giving them.
It's a good theory, but none of Schumacher's or Verstappen's aforementioned teammates were exactly Ayrton Senna, Fernando Alonso or Lewis Hamilton. So that puts a question mark over the whole notion (of it being a car that others will struggle with).

Ricciardo was the closest to being a top driver and he wasn't too far off Max's pace at all. =D>

[Of course Rosberg too, perhaps a driver at a similar level to Ricciardo albeit with Rosberg having a lot more wins and a driver's championship to show for it, but Schumacher was probably not driving at his best by that point.]

Certainly, Newey does note that some drivers can cope with corner entry oversteer while others absolutely detest it (he mentions a certain 4xWDC for instance...). :wtf:

ringo wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:33 am
I hope he gets a top calibre teammate at some point in his career so we can see what happens when he has to dig deep looking for setups.
Why would Verstappen have to dig deep looking for setups to beat his teammate? I don't think that will happen. At the most it would be like with Ricciardo, where Verstappen sometimes adopted Ricciardo's setup and vice versa. Their driving styles were/are relatively similar, liking to flow the car (obviously a problem with the McLaren which requires V-ing off the corners to minimise steering angle during braking and traction zones to maximise downforce).

I think Verstappen is more analytical than Ricciardo, so he probably wouldn't do as badly in the McLaren as Ricciardo, but it's hard to say for sure.

I think Hamilton's style is pretty similar to Verstappen and vice versa, so they would probably have no issue using very similar setups if they were teammates.

I can't imagine Verstappen would want to adopt Gasly's (presumably) understeering setup. I don't think he would like it. (Just as Hamilton would not get on with a setup favoured by Jenson Button.)

Curbstone
Curbstone
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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flmkane wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:04 am
ringo wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:33 am
Today's cars are so different than back then, that it's just likely Max just optimized himself around driving a redbull for 6 years.
There seems to be little info about his driving style or preferences outside of him being an early braker and that he is comfortable with neutrality more than his other teammates. He has good feel and reflexes and seems to balance a very nervous car well based on what can be observed in the races.
I hope he gets a top calibre teammate at some point in his career so we can see what happens when he has to dig deep looking for setups.
Maybe Norris or Gasly 2.0.
He had Danny Ric. Ric beat him two out of three seasons, and he lost the last season primarily because of reliability issues.
If you're gonna drag reliability into the equation, you should do so for both drivers. I've read some reliability correction analysis' in the past, and the general outcome was that Max would have ended up with more points than Daniel in the two last seasons. If you have the opinion the Daniel wast the faster of the two, you're in limited company.

But I would still love to see Max team up with Daniel, or any other top tier driver.

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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24 Today!

Image ..... Image
The Power of Honda!

flmkane
flmkane
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Curbstone wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:57 am
flmkane wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:04 am
ringo wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:33 am
Today's cars are so different than back then, that it's just likely Max just optimized himself around driving a redbull for 6 years.
There seems to be little info about his driving style or preferences outside of him being an early braker and that he is comfortable with neutrality more than his other teammates. He has good feel and reflexes and seems to balance a very nervous car well based on what can be observed in the races.
I hope he gets a top calibre teammate at some point in his career so we can see what happens when he has to dig deep looking for setups.
Maybe Norris or Gasly 2.0.
He had Danny Ric. Ric beat him two out of three seasons, and he lost the last season primarily because of reliability issues.
If you're gonna drag reliability into the equation, you should do so for both drivers. I've read some reliability correction analysis' in the past, and the general outcome was that Max would have ended up with more points than Daniel in the two last seasons. If you have the opinion the Daniel wast the faster of the two, you're in limited company.

But I would still love to see Max team up with Daniel, or any other top tier driver.
Relax, I never said Ric was faster. Have a beer for me! I only have vodka right now

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Edax wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:22 am

But that meant that they neglected the other seat. If you read the comments of for instance Irvine and Letho, they confess that they had a hard time adapting to the car.
Interestingly, I remember Irvine saying that when he was at Ferrari, he wanted more front end and the Ferrari guys said that Schumacher has so much already that they thought he was wrong. He had to fight to get the car where he wanted it.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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The Power of Honda!

dxpetrov
dxpetrov
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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wowgr8 wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:46 am
dxpetrov wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:30 pm
OK boys, let's go and get all 7 in a row now!
7 wins in a row? There's only 6 races left. I wish but Mercedes seem to unlock more and more engine power with every round, I think they'll be difficult to beat everywhere and Verstappen needs Perez for strategy and to try and finish ahead of Hamilton
You were sayin'?!!! #-o
https://www.planetf1.com/news/formula-1 ... rand-prix/

Always wondering, in this era of endless information coming from every direction, some people still manage to miss few...

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dxpetrov wrote:
Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:59 am
wowgr8 wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:46 am
dxpetrov wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:30 pm
OK boys, let's go and get all 7 in a row now!
7 wins in a row? There's only 6 races left. I wish but Mercedes seem to unlock more and more engine power with every round, I think they'll be difficult to beat everywhere and Verstappen needs Perez for strategy and to try and finish ahead of Hamilton
You were sayin'?!!! #-o
https://www.planetf1.com/news/formula-1 ... rand-prix/

Always wondering, in this era of endless information coming from every direction, some people still manage to miss few...
He posted his comment 3 days before the additional GP was announced. :roll:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

dxpetrov
dxpetrov
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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yes, but it was already unofficially announced as done deal.