2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Spoutnik]

Long post incoming, ................

All of this could have been of nought if Max wouldn't have suffered in Baku, Silverstone, Hungary, Italy (slow stop due to adhoc pit stop rule introduction) and the consequence of engine penalties for no fault of their own. RB could have used the option of using an extra engine more strategically, than being forced on. If Max would have had a trouble free season, the championship could have been over long back and we wouldn't be speculating the rise of Mercedes power for the last few races and both teams would have moved on to 2022.

In fact, if anything this season was a rude awakening for Mercedes on their PU front. So much unreliability and they had to run their engines full power for most part of the race on most races, which they hadn't done ever in hybrid era. They were forced to spend more time for 2021 than they would have liked, as in earlier years. This has been the year of Honda, who have not just brought power on par with Mercedes, but reliability far exceeding that of Mercedes. For me personally, I was completely hopeless for such a used engine to be even be competitive in Saudi and Abu Dhabi, compared to a brand new Mercedes engine and for the dubious (arguable) rear wing. I am sure in time, there would be some news of how Mercedes managed to turn up the engine power since Silverstone and more particularly from Brazil.

What was impressive from a RB (Max) point of view was their consistency.
While Merc had some very bad day where they were just not understanding the car and were not even able to put up a fight with RB, Max and RB have had very few days like this.
Merc were absolutely nowhere in Monaco (especially Hamilton), same in Baku (even if they were able to be ahead of Ferrari/McLaren unlike Monaco). They were nowhere near Max in both rounds in Austria, and where even outqualified by a McLaren...

Once the car improved at the Silverstone and they begun to understand the car "day off" happened less except for their horrendous race pace in Mexico which was more due to the nature of the track I believe.

I think that's what ultimately give the advantage to Verstappen, and should've given them WCC if Perez was better in qualy. I took a look at Verstappen stat this year and he never finished outside of top 2 when he finished a race... This is unreal consistency and that's what you need when it's a 1v1 fight in the driver championship. Hamilton, for all his talent, and Merc, were not able to do that at the beggining of the year.

[west52keep64]

In fact, if anything this season was a rude awakening for Mercedes on their PU front. So much unreliability and they had to run their engines full power for most part of the race on most races, which they hadn't done ever in hybrid era. They were forced to spend more time for 2021 than they would have liked, as in earlier years. This has been the year of Honda, who have not just brought power on par with Mercedes, but reliability far exceeding that of Mercedes. For me personally, I was completely hopeless for such a used engine to be even be competitive in Saudi and Abu Dhabi, compared to a brand new Mercedes engine and for the dubious (arguable) rear wing. I am sure in time, there would be some news of how Mercedes managed to turn up the engine power since Silverstone and more particularly from Brazil.

Do you have some data or analysis that shows this? Throughout the year many people raved about how Mercedes had the best PU by far, and Red Bull were making up the difference with their high rake chassis concept, and the changes to the floor giving them the advantage with that concept. This is the first time I am hearing the reason for the performance was actually because Honda delivered a massive improvement to the PU that puts it on par with the Mercedes. I'm certainly interested to read some analysis that explains that hypothesis...

[Spoutnik]

In fact, if anything this season was a rude awakening for Mercedes on their PU front. So much unreliability and they had to run their engines full power for most part of the race on most races, which they hadn't done ever in hybrid era. They were forced to spend more time for 2021 than they would have liked, as in earlier years. This has been the year of Honda, who have not just brought power on par with Mercedes, but reliability far exceeding that of Mercedes. For me personally, I was completely hopeless for such a used engine to be even be competitive in Saudi and Abu Dhabi, compared to a brand new Mercedes engine and for the dubious (arguable) rear wing. I am sure in time, there would be some news of how Mercedes managed to turn up the engine power since Silverstone and more particularly from Brazil.

Do you have some data or analysis that shows this? Throughout the year many people raved about how Mercedes had the best PU by far, and Red Bull were making up the difference with their high rake chassis concept, and the changes to the floor giving them the advantage with that concept. This is the first time I am hearing the reason for the performance was actually because Honda delivered a massive improvement to the PU that puts it on par with the Mercedes. I'm certainly interested to read some analysis that explains that hypothesis...

The Honda PU at the beginning of the season was on par or more powerful than Merc. It was clear on some tracks with many straights. At least the Honda PU was closer to Merc than to Ferrari/Renault. That's why Merc bought an aero upgrade which helped them to have a tremendous straight line at Silverstone. That's also why Merc were running mid DF wing on Hamilton's car at Portimao (which helped him to overtake Verstappen), and why they created this stall diffusor trick I believe.

Regarding the reliability I think every reports highlighted the fact that Merc PU was losing a lot of power with mileage which is why Merc brought an "upgrade" at the end of the season in order to solve these issues. Furthemore, these issues were not only related to a progressive/linear loss of power as Bottas and Hamilton had many leaks (fuel I believe but not sure) with their engines which is why the PU "upgrade" is said to make the engine 0.600 kg heavier.

[west52keep64]

In fact, if anything this season was a rude awakening for Mercedes on their PU front. So much unreliability and they had to run their engines full power for most part of the race on most races, which they hadn't done ever in hybrid era. They were forced to spend more time for 2021 than they would have liked, as in earlier years. This has been the year of Honda, who have not just brought power on par with Mercedes, but reliability far exceeding that of Mercedes. For me personally, I was completely hopeless for such a used engine to be even be competitive in Saudi and Abu Dhabi, compared to a brand new Mercedes engine and for the dubious (arguable) rear wing. I am sure in time, there would be some news of how Mercedes managed to turn up the engine power since Silverstone and more particularly from Brazil.

Do you have some data or analysis that shows this? Throughout the year many people raved about how Mercedes had the best PU by far, and Red Bull were making up the difference with their high rake chassis concept, and the changes to the floor giving them the advantage with that concept. This is the first time I am hearing the reason for the performance was actually because Honda delivered a massive improvement to the PU that puts it on par with the Mercedes. I'm certainly interested to read some analysis that explains that hypothesis...

The Honda PU at the beginning of the season was on par or more powerful than Merc. It was clear on some tracks with many straights. At least the Honda PU was closer to Merc than to Ferrari/Renault. That's why Merc bought an aero upgrade which helped them to have a tremendous straight line at Silverstone. That's also why Merc were running mid DF wing on Hamilton's car at Portimao (which helped him to overtake Verstappen), and why they created this stall diffusor trick I believe.

Regarding the reliability I think every reports highlighted the fact that Merc PU was losing a lot of power with mileage which is why Merc brought an "upgrade" at the end of the season in order to solve these issues. Furthemore, these issues were not only related to a progressive/linear loss of power as Bottas and Hamilton had many leaks (fuel I believe but not sure) with their engines which is why the PU "upgrade" is said to be 0.600 kg heavier.

Could you share the link to the analysis where you learned this? Or is it just your own speculative analysis?

[Spoutnik]

Do you have some data or analysis that shows this? Throughout the year many people raved about how Mercedes had the best PU by far, and Red Bull were making up the difference with their high rake chassis concept, and the changes to the floor giving them the advantage with that concept. This is the first time I am hearing the reason for the performance was actually because Honda delivered a massive improvement to the PU that puts it on par with the Mercedes. I'm certainly interested to read some analysis that explains that hypothesis...

The Honda PU at the beginning of the season was on par or more powerful than Merc. It was clear on some tracks with many straights. At least the Honda PU was closer to Merc than to Ferrari/Renault. That's why Merc bought an aero upgrade which helped them to have a tremendous straight line at Silverstone. That's also why Merc were running mid DF wing on Hamilton's car at Portimao (which helped him to overtake Verstappen), and why they created this stall diffusor trick I believe.

Regarding the reliability I think every reports highlighted the fact that Merc PU was losing a lot of power with mileage which is why Merc brought an "upgrade" at the end of the season in order to solve these issues. Furthemore, these issues were not only related to a progressive/linear loss of power as Bottas and Hamilton had many leaks (fuel I believe but not sure) with their engines which is why the PU "upgrade" is said to be 0.600 kg heavier.

Could you share the link to the analysis where you learned this? Or is it just your own speculative analysis?

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... ne-update/

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... ine-issue/

And this thread which is the translation of an article.
https://twitter.com/fiagirly/status/144 ... 20371?s=20

[west52keep64]

The Honda PU at the beginning of the season was on par or more powerful than Merc. It was clear on some tracks with many straights. At least the Honda PU was closer to Merc than to Ferrari/Renault. That's why Merc bought an aero upgrade which helped them to have a tremendous straight line at Silverstone. That's also why Merc were running mid DF wing on Hamilton's car at Portimao (which helped him to overtake Verstappen), and why they created this stall diffusor trick I believe.

Regarding the reliability I think every reports highlighted the fact that Merc PU was losing a lot of power with mileage which is why Merc brought an "upgrade" at the end of the season in order to solve these issues. Furthemore, these issues were not only related to a progressive/linear loss of power as Bottas and Hamilton had many leaks (fuel I believe but not sure) with their engines which is why the PU "upgrade" is said to be 0.600 kg heavier.

Sorry, I was not clear, I was more interested in the analysis behind the claims I've highlighted. The Merc power degradation is well documented, but this wouldn't have applied at the start of the season as they would have had fresh PUs. If the Honda was on par with the Merc PU at the start of the season, that would suggest the Honda PU was more powerful as the Merc PU started to degrade through the season. I'm not sure if that really aligns with the views throughout the season that the Merc PU was more powerful. Many people here felt it was a "rocket"...

[Spoutnik]

The Honda PU at the beginning of the season was on par or more powerful than Merc. It was clear on some tracks with many straights. At least the Honda PU was closer to Merc than to Ferrari/Renault. That's why Merc bought an aero upgrade which helped them to have a tremendous straight line at Silverstone. That's also why Merc were running mid DF wing on Hamilton's car at Portimao (which helped him to overtake Verstappen), and why they created this stall diffusor trick I believe.

Regarding the reliability I think every reports highlighted the fact that Merc PU was losing a lot of power with mileage which is why Merc brought an "upgrade" at the end of the season in order to solve these issues. Furthemore, these issues were not only related to a progressive/linear loss of power as Bottas and Hamilton had many leaks (fuel I believe but not sure) with their engines which is why the PU "upgrade" is said to be 0.600 kg heavier.

Sorry, I was not clear, I was more interested in the analysis behind the claims I've highlighted. The Merc power degradation is well documented, but this wouldn't have applied at the start of the season as they would have had fresh PUs. If the Honda was on par with the Merc PU at the start of the season, that would suggest the Honda PU was more powerful as the Merc PU started to degrade through the season. I'm not sure if that really aligns with the views throughout the season that the Merc PU was more powerful. Many people here felt it was a "rocket"...

Yes, I think at the very beginning of the season it was quite equal. The rocket theory started already a bit at Portimao and Silverstone with the mid DF setup. Nevertheless the RB chassis have always been more "dragy" due to their philosophy.

Regarding the "rocket" engine. I feel all of this is a "hoax" alimented by Wolff himself.
Mercedes were fast but not so far ahead at Monza "temple of speed". I think the stall diffusor trick is the main reason why Merc gained so much. Ofc they resolved some of their issue with the engine, run it harder, and may be increase the compression ratio as they could get away with it with 2 races on each PU left, but that doesn't make +75hp.

In fact, the advantahe on straight line speed was very different on each track. In fact the stall worked very well in Russia, Turkey and Brazil it seems, and the speed trap showed it. It was largely inefective in USA for example.

i.e : speed trap in Russia despite running an old engine which led to a grid penalty in the following race ; https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... ds_v01.pdf

To finish, I might be speculating but the stall by definition is harder the faster you go, this is why the slipstream was so powerful for Hamilton in Brazil, or even in Jeddah behind Max despite the fact that RB was faster on the straights in quali.

[ringo]

I tried to turn the discussion to the RB16.. but it seems people want to discuss the W12 being this amazing car.. and the redbull is a dog.

The RB16 is in fact the best car this year. And its an injustice that the team arent getting any credit for it.
The honda PU is as powerful as the mercedes unit. It's deployment strategy is also very advanced.
Where Mercedes got an edge powerwise is possibly from running more aggressive mapping at the expense of reliability and they probably started doing this earlier than we all think. Possibly after the two austria races.

But the redbull for me was a masterpiece in downforce efficiency, braking, and agility. Coupled with that Honda motor it was a very consistent car and predictable. I think the qualifying sessions are where it simply looked like it was on rails.
The flexi wing regs may have hurt them somewhat. And was there some ruling on the ERS?

[Spoutnik]

I tried to turn the discussion to the RB16.. but it seems people want to discuss the W12 being this amazing car.. and the redbull is a dog.

The RB16 is in fact the best car this year. And its an injustice that the team arent getting any credit for it.
The honda PU is as powerful as the mercedes unit. It's deployment strategy is also very advanced.
Where Mercedes got an edge powerwise is possibly from running more aggressive mapping at the expense of reliability and they probably started doing this earlier than we all think. Possibly after the two austria races.

But the redbull for me was a masterpiece in downforce efficiency, braking, and agility. Coupled with that Honda motor it was a very consistent car and predictable. I think the qualifying sessions are where it simply looked like it was on rails.
The flexi wing regs may have hurt them somewhat. And was there some ruling on the ERS?

You are right. Amazing work by Honda, and the reliability was terrific.
As I said earlier, Max only finishing P1 or P2 is speaking volume about the consistency of this car on each tracks (even if it's thanks to Verstappen abilities ofc). The rhetoric about Mercedes rocket is quite untrue.

[Ryar]

But the redbull for me was a masterpiece in downforce efficiency, braking, and agility. Coupled with that Honda motor it was a very consistent car and predictable. I think the qualifying sessions are where it simply looked like it was on rails.
The flexi wing regs may have hurt them somewhat. And was there some ruling on the ERS?

RB16B had its own challenges. Coincidentally, it started with new construction of Pirelli that came in Silverstone. The car suddenly lost its front bite, causing balance issues. They had to sacrifice the rear end grip to balance front. It was the same case in Hungary, Turkey and Mexico. Because of the lack of front grip, Max had to adjust his driving and started to break early to get the front rotating. Conversely, the new compound seemed to have helped Mercedes as it reflected in the uptick of performance and as speculated, it helped them in sealing the diffuser better (with stiff side wall) which was a struggle with new breakduct regulations of 2021.

One of the worst elements in F1 of the last decade is Pirelli. For God sake, fire Pirelli and bring Bridgestone back. How long do we have to endure their inefficiency. Unpredictable tyres, pressures matching road cars and unending reliability issues of tyres. Never in F1 was there a period where one element was this bad. It's because of their rubbish tyres we see a sham like drivers queuing up in the last turn causing mayhem.

[ringo]

But the redbull for me was a masterpiece in downforce efficiency, braking, and agility. Coupled with that Honda motor it was a very consistent car and predictable. I think the qualifying sessions are where it simply looked like it was on rails.
The flexi wing regs may have hurt them somewhat. And was there some ruling on the ERS?

RB16B had its own challenges. Coincidentally, it started with new construction of Pirelli that came in Silverstone. The car suddenly lost its front bite, causing balance issues. They had to sacrifice the rear end grip to balance front. It was the same case in Hungary, Turkey and Mexico. Because of the lack of front grip, Max had to adjust his driving and started to break early to get the front rotating. Conversely, the new compound seemed to have helped Mercedes as it reflected in the uptick of performance and as speculated, it helped them in sealing the diffuser better (with stiff side wall) which was a struggle with new breakduct regulations of 2021.

One of the worst elements in F1 of the last decade is Pirelli. For God sake, fire Pirelli and bring Bridgestone back. How long do we have to endure their inefficiency. Unpredictable tyres, pressures matching road cars and unending reliability issues of tyres. Never in F1 was there a period where one element was this bad. It's because of their rubbish tyres we see a sham like drivers queuing up in the last turn causing mayhem.

Max has not changed his driving style. He brakes earlier than most late brakers. The pirellis didnt affect their front end grip. I think Max just got the setup direction wrong a few times and Checo was of no help because of inexperience. Hungary, Mexico, Turkey.. All had understeer in qualifying. But These were simply tracks that have extreme setup directions. High downforce, low downforce, and little data, respectively. But the car still worked extremely well in the races. So the tyres worked quite fine with the car outside of low fuel.
Redbull car has immense grip at rear and front end, hence tyre warm up and braking abilities.
The pirelli tyres arent great but it's the same for all. I hope the 18 inch are better.

What i noticed in Jedha was the car was sprung stiffer than tge mercedes. The w12 was unusually smooth. The rb16 seemed less damped. It's possible mercedes has more mechanical tricks than engine power or downforce.

[Kingshark]

Is anyone else here slightly worried that Honda will be behind Ferrari and Mercedes next year by a significant margin?

If it’s anything over 20 horsepower, I can’t see Red Bull overcoming that deficit, even with the best designer and the best driver at their disposal.

Let’s hope Honda leave us with a quality 2022 engine.

[Big Tea]

Is anyone else here slightly worried that Honda will be behind Ferrari and Mercedes next year by a significant margin?

If it’s anything over 20 horsepower, I can’t see Red Bull overcoming that deficit, even with the best designer and the best driver at their disposal.

Let’s hope Honda leave us with a quality 2022 engine.

I think at the start of the year there will be little in it, but later I think it will depend on just how forthcoming Honda development are going to be. There is far more to having a top engine than just building it.

[Kingshark]

Is anyone else here slightly worried that Honda will be behind Ferrari and Mercedes next year by a significant margin?

If it’s anything over 20 horsepower, I can’t see Red Bull overcoming that deficit, even with the best designer and the best driver at their disposal.

Let’s hope Honda leave us with a quality 2022 engine.

I think at the start of the year there will be little in it, but later I think it will depend on just how forthcoming Honda development are going to be. There is far more to having a top engine than just building it.

What do you mean? I thought no upgrades were allowed from March 2022 onwards.

[Big Tea]

Is anyone else here slightly worried that Honda will be behind Ferrari and Mercedes next year by a significant margin?

If it’s anything over 20 horsepower, I can’t see Red Bull overcoming that deficit, even with the best designer and the best driver at their disposal.

Let’s hope Honda leave us with a quality 2022 engine.

I think at the start of the year there will be little in it, but later I think it will depend on just how forthcoming Honda development are going to be. There is far more to having a top engine than just building it.

What do you mean? I thought no upgrades were allowed from March 2022 onwards.

That just makes keeping up more expensive as you can not change things. Freeze is somewhat of a misnomer. fluids and fuels can still be worked on and is the energy recovery/use included?