2021 Ferrari F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
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AtlasZX
1
Joined: Fri May 14, 2021 6:25 pm

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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basti313 wrote:
Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:54 am
tpe wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:15 pm
basti313 wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:30 pm

Also here some history:
Why is Ferrari so quiet? Well....Ferrari was not quiet in 2015 until they got a high class engineer trades from Mercedes with a hand shake agreement between Zetsche and Marchionne to stay quiet. They simply could not use this and went into the wrong direction as they did not change to the split turbo once the token system was lifted, but played with fuel flow tricks.
What do you mean?
WHAT happened in 2015? I don't know anything about this story!
Puuuhhhh....long story:
It started 2014. After the first race Merc knew that they win everything and Renault, Ferrari knew that they are screwed. It was obvious that the split turbo works and due to the conceptual differences it has a big benefit. The issue was, that due to the token system Ferrari and Renault were simply not allowed to change to this solution even if they tried.
You can, of course, imagine the background noise that started but was never going public until 2015. It was basically as if Merc turned up with a Diesel engine and Ferrari and Renault were like locked on Petrol with less energy density.
I never understood, why there is no BOP between the concepts if they are locked by the rules...but maybe this was something Ferrari was lobbying for.

Marchionne and Zetsche were "friends" or at least well connected. This lead to turning down all Hamilton moving rumors and it led to Merc trading core engine personal (Zimmermann) to Ferrari to calm them down and pretend they get a chance.
But the only thing that came out were most probably some tricks that got disallowed at Merc (compliance!), because they still did not go for the split turbo in 2017. Ferrari just had to make up for the efficiency deficit on the turbo with other tricks.
Wolf Zimmermann is now the connecting person from AVL to Ferrari for the 2022 engine.

In short what should have happend:
Instead of the fuel trick we saw with Ferrari, the FIA should have and would have in any other series introduced a sort of BOP. Means something like 2% less fuel flow for the split turbo. But now we see for years a situation like in LeMans when Audi turned up with a Diesel engine...
BoP is useless, if I have 100hp advantage, I can simply hide 99 of them till I need it...

JPBD1990
JPBD1990
39
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:19 am

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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Ferrari seem optimistic for the engine project next year. They’re rumoured to ~not~ be moving to the split turbo layout.

Again I can only defer to Ferrari expertise. They know where they were in 2019. They know where Mercedes are right now. they know what they’ve been working on now since the beginning of 2020. Either they know what they’re doing or they don’t, split turbo or not.

Id think with that much lead time that if they turned up with anything less than parity or a small enough deficit to make it worthless, then…. Yes we’re screwed.

noname
noname
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Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:55 am
Location: EU

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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basti313 wrote:
Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:54 am
It started 2014. After the first race Merc knew that they win everything and Renault, Ferrari knew that they are screwed. It was obvious that the split turbo works and due to the conceptual differences it has a big benefit. (...)
Ferrari knew they are in sh***t already after 1st day of 2014 preseason testing. That day they decided to accelerate development of their 2015 engine. Actually, was planned for 2015 was raced in 2014.

And the problem was not superiority of split turbo concept, that's a myth I do not want talk about again, but vehicle concept decided in Maranello. They sacrificed engine performance (coming from all those e-gizmos) in favour of aerodynamics. Ferrari was working on their own "split turbo", but decided against. One should not forget Mercedes was developing e-turbo by themselves, Ferrari (and Renault) outsourced those activities, with turbo being done by someone else than MGUH. I understand why they decided turbo concept, and in their case I believe it was the right decision.

Token system was agreed by everyone. Ferrari and Renault were beaten by Mercedes because they did not take new regulations seriously enough. Mercedes did the best homework, plain and simple.

I still remember RedBull in vain trying to get out from the pit during pre-season test. At the same time Mercedes was ticking lap after lap.

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Alakshendra
-2
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:48 pm

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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JPBD1990 wrote:
Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:24 am
Ferrari seem optimistic for the engine project next year. They’re rumoured to ~not~ be moving to the split turbo layout.

Again I can only defer to Ferrari expertise. They know where they were in 2019. They know where Mercedes are right now. they know what they’ve been working on now since the beginning of 2020. Either they know what they’re doing or they don’t, split turbo or not.

Id think with that much lead time that if they turned up with anything less than parity or a small enough deficit to make it worthless, then…. Yes we’re screwed.
I think its better not to go with merc design since they are already the experts there so there is no way to beat them in same. Interesting part is Budget Cap F1 means you need $145 million. Peanuts for the big teams, and attainable to the small teams but again for teams like mercedes, ferrari it might be a problem. All the teams are working on this 2022 from long time so fingers crossed who comes up with a better car.

basti313
basti313
25
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

AtlasZX wrote:
Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:20 am
basti313 wrote:
Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:54 am
tpe wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:15 pm


What do you mean?
WHAT happened in 2015? I don't know anything about this story!
Puuuhhhh....long story:
It started 2014. After the first race Merc knew that they win everything and Renault, Ferrari knew that they are screwed. It was obvious that the split turbo works and due to the conceptual differences it has a big benefit. The issue was, that due to the token system Ferrari and Renault were simply not allowed to change to this solution even if they tried.
You can, of course, imagine the background noise that started but was never going public until 2015. It was basically as if Merc turned up with a Diesel engine and Ferrari and Renault were like locked on Petrol with less energy density.
I never understood, why there is no BOP between the concepts if they are locked by the rules...but maybe this was something Ferrari was lobbying for.

Marchionne and Zetsche were "friends" or at least well connected. This lead to turning down all Hamilton moving rumors and it led to Merc trading core engine personal (Zimmermann) to Ferrari to calm them down and pretend they get a chance.
But the only thing that came out were most probably some tricks that got disallowed at Merc (compliance!), because they still did not go for the split turbo in 2017. Ferrari just had to make up for the efficiency deficit on the turbo with other tricks.
Wolf Zimmermann is now the connecting person from AVL to Ferrari for the 2022 engine.

In short what should have happend:
Instead of the fuel trick we saw with Ferrari, the FIA should have and would have in any other series introduced a sort of BOP. Means something like 2% less fuel flow for the split turbo. But now we see for years a situation like in LeMans when Audi turned up with a Diesel engine...
BoP is useless, if I have 100hp advantage, I can simply hide 99 of them till I need it...
No, not for conceptual issues. I am not talking about a BOP similar to GT3, where they guess the performance. But really the hard figures with efficiency that stay constant.
But this does not play a role next year, I am 100% sure everyone will be on the split turbo.

Even if the H is scrapped, thay will anyways need a split turbo 2025.
JPBD1990 wrote:
Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:24 am
Ferrari seem optimistic for the engine project next year. They’re rumoured to ~not~ be moving to the split turbo layout.
There are rumors in both directions. Same for Renault. But for Renault there are already pictures proofing it.
The combination of AVL and Zimmermann speaks for it...
noname wrote:
Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:47 am
And the problem was not superiority of split turbo concept, that's a myth I do not want talk about again, but vehicle concept decided in Maranello.
I thought the same, but Honda prove the opposite.

Yes, Merc dumped loads of money on this, this is why they could follow the concepts in parallel. The split turbo is still hugely expensive, this is why Merc never could say yes to the 12mio cost cap for the engine.

Furthermore you can take Redbull in your comment as the clear point why no non-works team will win in this rules.
Alakshendra wrote:
Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:48 am
I think its better not to go with merc design since they are already the experts there so there is no way to beat them in same. Interesting part is Budget Cap F1 means you need $145 million. Peanuts for the big teams, and attainable to the small teams but again for teams like mercedes, ferrari it might be a problem. All the teams are working on this 2022 from long time so fingers crossed who comes up with a better car.
You are missing the point that the engine is not under the cost cap.
Ferrari and Renault can dump as much money as they want on the engine and this is a further reason why they will go for the split turbo. There is no drawback except for money.

tpe
tpe
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:24 pm
Location: Greece

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

basti313 wrote:
Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:54 am
tpe wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:15 pm
basti313 wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:30 pm

Also here some history:
Why is Ferrari so quiet? Well....Ferrari was not quiet in 2015 until they got a high class engineer trades from Mercedes with a hand shake agreement between Zetsche and Marchionne to stay quiet. They simply could not use this and went into the wrong direction as they did not change to the split turbo once the token system was lifted, but played with fuel flow tricks.
What do you mean?
WHAT happened in 2015? I don't know anything about this story!
Puuuhhhh....long story:
It started 2014. After the first race Merc knew that they win everything and Renault, Ferrari knew that they are screwed. It was obvious that the split turbo works and due to the conceptual differences it has a big benefit. The issue was, that due to the token system Ferrari and Renault were simply not allowed to change to this solution even if they tried.
You can, of course, imagine the background noise that started but was never going public until 2015. It was basically as if Merc turned up with a Diesel engine and Ferrari and Renault were like locked on Petrol with less energy density.
I never understood, why there is no BOP between the concepts if they are locked by the rules...but maybe this was something Ferrari was lobbying for.

Marchionne and Zetsche were "friends" or at least well connected. This lead to turning down all Hamilton moving rumors and it led to Merc trading core engine personal (Zimmermann) to Ferrari to calm them down and pretend they get a chance.
But the only thing that came out were most probably some tricks that got disallowed at Merc (compliance!), because they still did not go for the split turbo in 2017. Ferrari just had to make up for the efficiency deficit on the turbo with other tricks.
Wolf Zimmermann is now the connecting person from AVL to Ferrari for the 2022 engine.

In short what should have happend:
Instead of the fuel trick we saw with Ferrari, the FIA should have and would have in any other series introduced a sort of BOP. Means something like 2% less fuel flow for the split turbo. But now we see for years a situation like in LeMans when Audi turned up with a Diesel engine...
Many thanks!

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Alakshendra
-2
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:48 pm

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

basti313 wrote:
Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:54 am
Alakshendra wrote:
Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:48 am
I think its better not to go with merc design since they are already the experts there so there is no way to beat them in same. Interesting part is Budget Cap F1 means you need $145 million. Peanuts for the big teams, and attainable to the small teams but again for teams like mercedes, ferrari it might be a problem. All the teams are working on this 2022 from long time so fingers crossed who comes up with a better car.
You are missing the point that the engine is not under the cost cap.
Ferrari and Renault can dump as much money as they want on the engine and this is a further reason why they will go for the split turbo. There is no drawback except for money.
Thanks, i was not aware of Engine cost being kept separate of the 145mn cap. So overall Aero will be the key in these upcoming years. RB might have edge there due to Newey.

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jumpingfish
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Location: Ru

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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User avatar
jumpingfish
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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BlueCheetah66
BlueCheetah66
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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I assume part of the reason they are returning to Ferrari is because of Sainz. Especially with talk of a contract extension for Sainz

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jumpingfish
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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BlueCheetah66 wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:18 pm
I assume part of the reason they are returning to Ferrari is because of Sainz. Especially with talk of a contract extension for Sainz
I think so too. When in some countries Ferrari was forced to remove the MW logos, I thought that their partnership with PMI would not last long. I wonder if white will return to cars? And what shade of red will be used?

JPower
JPower
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Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:06 am

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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The MasterPlan is hard at work. 8)

I’m guessing the red/white livery is coming back.

Next on the list, Sainz extension and hiring Todt.

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F1NAC
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Location: CRO

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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jumpingfish wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:25 pm
BlueCheetah66 wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:18 pm
I assume part of the reason they are returning to Ferrari is because of Sainz. Especially with talk of a contract extension for Sainz
I think so too. When in some countries Ferrari was forced to remove the MW logos, I thought that their partnership with PMI would not last long. I wonder if white will return to cars? And what shade of red will be used?
Isn't that matte paint performance related, not sponsor? I expect that te red will be the same. Since Santander bacame their premium partner (Is that somekind of title sponsor, or little below that level? ) I expect white. Definitely on wings.

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jumpingfish
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Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:19 pm
Location: Ru

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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F1NAC wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:22 am
jumpingfish wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:25 pm
BlueCheetah66 wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:18 pm


I assume part of the reason they are returning to Ferrari is because of Sainz. Especially with talk of a contract extension for Sainz
I think so too. When in some countries Ferrari was forced to remove the MW logos, I thought that their partnership with PMI would not last long. I wonder if white will return to cars? And what shade of red will be used?
Isn't that matte paint performance related, not sponsor? I expect that te red will be the same. Since Santander bacame their premium partner (Is that somekind of title sponsor, or little below that level? ) I expect white. Definitely on wings.
Yes, matte instead of gloss was for the sake of weight reduction, but I meant a shade of red (dark or bright red). And for Santander I'm not sure that premium = title, maybe lower as you said. :)

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Schippke
Schippke
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Location: Australia

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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Hopefully, Ferrari makes a world beater next year and we can go back to something of their traditional Rosso Corsa gloss colour... or something similar to Alfa Romeo's Competizione Red (cannot remember Ferrari's name for it!). :mrgreen:

Quietly confident we can start the season strongly at this stage... but keeping feel firmly buried in the ground. Pre-season testing will be more important than ever and might be even harder to try and nail down who is doing what and what the pecking order is.