2021 Ferrari F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
Mr.S
Mr.S
0
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:21 pm

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

I think Binotto said 7 Tenths is the gap on an average (maybe) & 60% is on the Engine Side. Let us assume 4 tenths Engine + 3 Tenths Aero. Ferrari is good on slow corners (as quick as RB). RB will bring further updates & Mercedes may also bring if they find something significant (a couple of tenths odd). So there will be a gap even if the engine upgrade covers the 3-4 tenths gap that they have (If it is that big !)

But it will be interesting as without upgrades (significant to others), they will go ahead of Mclaren & Alpha Tauri/Ashton Martin/Alpine section. If they are 3-4 tenths down on RB, Leclerc will be ahead of Perez in most tracks (given Perez is 4-5 tenths behind Max on qualifying). So, you can expect more P4-P5 Qualy positions, beating Norris & occasional podiums as well.

That is an optimistic scenario assuming significant engine upgrades gains + Not Much upgrades from other teams !

hape
hape
2
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:17 pm

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Mr.S wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:30 am
I think Binotto said 7 Tenths is the gap on an average (maybe) & 60% is on the Engine Side. Let us assume 4 tenths Engine + 3 Tenths Aero. Ferrari is good on slow corners (as quick as RB). RB will bring further updates & Mercedes may also bring if they find something significant (a couple of tenths odd). So there will be a gap even if the engine upgrade covers the 3-4 tenths gap that they have (If it is that big !)

But it will be interesting as without upgrades (significant to others), they will go ahead of Mclaren & Alpha Tauri/Ashton Martin/Alpine section. If they are 3-4 tenths down on RB, Leclerc will be ahead of Perez in most tracks (given Perez is 4-5 tenths behind Max on qualifying). So, you can expect more P4-P5 Qualy positions, beating Norris & occasional podiums as well.

That is an optimistic scenario assuming significant engine upgrades gains + Not Much upgrades from other teams !
I think Ferrari, compared to its main rivals, has the advantage of bringing a major PU update because some parts are still from 2020. Mercedes and Honda can’t because they already introduced complete new PU with all its components.
Now anything more than 10hp can be seen as a huge upgrade, so I wouldn’t expect much more than that tbh. Which translates on average a 0,1 s gain on a single lap. It might be they can use the energy more efficient during the race, that would help.
So, like all teams, what I believe, the most gain is still in aero and especially setting the car to the track.

LM10
LM10
102
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

As far as I know the PU department is not within budget cap and can develop with limitless resources.
But since Binotto talked about how Leclerc’s crash will most probably mean a 4th PU at some time in this season and how that will have an impact on their financial situation within budget cap as well, I assume that changing the PU is part of the limited budget?

If so, can we say how much an additional PU change does cost?

User avatar
Ryar
6
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:28 pm

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

hape wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:18 am
Mr.S wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:30 am
I think Binotto said 7 Tenths is the gap on an average (maybe) & 60% is on the Engine Side. Let us assume 4 tenths Engine + 3 Tenths Aero. Ferrari is good on slow corners (as quick as RB). RB will bring further updates & Mercedes may also bring if they find something significant (a couple of tenths odd). So there will be a gap even if the engine upgrade covers the 3-4 tenths gap that they have (If it is that big !)

But it will be interesting as without upgrades (significant to others), they will go ahead of Mclaren & Alpha Tauri/Ashton Martin/Alpine section. If they are 3-4 tenths down on RB, Leclerc will be ahead of Perez in most tracks (given Perez is 4-5 tenths behind Max on qualifying). So, you can expect more P4-P5 Qualy positions, beating Norris & occasional podiums as well.

That is an optimistic scenario assuming significant engine upgrades gains + Not Much upgrades from other teams !
I think Ferrari, compared to its main rivals, has the advantage of bringing a major PU update because some parts are still from 2020. Mercedes and Honda can’t because they already introduced complete new PU with all its components.
Now anything more than 10hp can be seen as a huge upgrade, so I wouldn’t expect much more than that tbh. Which translates on average a 0,1 s gain on a single lap. It might be they can use the energy more efficient during the race, that would help.
So, like all teams, what I believe, the most gain is still in aero and especially setting the car to the track.
Any amount of additional power is "significant" because it allows adding downforce and downforce is key to getting optimum performance out of tyres other than enhanced cornering performance, which is a big benefit. As Ferrari says, it also helps the hybrid to be used efficiently. So the cumulative gain is much more than just 0.1 second.
Imagine if the new ICE also comes with better optimized cooling requirements, it then allows aero benefits of tighter packaging.
Hakuna Matata!

MachineCo.
MachineCo.
1
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:34 pm

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

plus better fuel efficiency so they can start with less weight.

tpe
tpe
-2
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:24 pm
Location: Greece

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Mr.S wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:30 am
I think Binotto said 7 Tenths is the gap on an average (maybe) & 60% is on the Engine Side. Let us assume 4 tenths Engine + 3 Tenths Aero. Ferrari is good on slow corners (as quick as RB). RB will bring further updates & Mercedes may also bring if they find something significant (a couple of tenths odd). So there will be a gap even if the engine upgrade covers the 3-4 tenths gap that they have (If it is that big !)

But it will be interesting as without upgrades (significant to others), they will go ahead of Mclaren & Alpha Tauri/Ashton Martin/Alpine section. If they are 3-4 tenths down on RB, Leclerc will be ahead of Perez in most tracks (given Perez is 4-5 tenths behind Max on qualifying). So, you can expect more P4-P5 Qualy positions, beating Norris & occasional podiums as well.

That is an optimistic scenario assuming significant engine upgrades gains + Not Much upgrades from other teams !
Based on your calculations (I am not saying they are wrong), Ferrari has a PU that is 40bhp down.
Interesting.

JPower
JPower
35
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:06 am

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

tpe wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:31 pm
Mr.S wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:30 am
I think Binotto said 7 Tenths is the gap on an average (maybe) & 60% is on the Engine Side. Let us assume 4 tenths Engine + 3 Tenths Aero. Ferrari is good on slow corners (as quick as RB). RB will bring further updates & Mercedes may also bring if they find something significant (a couple of tenths odd). So there will be a gap even if the engine upgrade covers the 3-4 tenths gap that they have (If it is that big !)

But it will be interesting as without upgrades (significant to others), they will go ahead of Mclaren & Alpha Tauri/Ashton Martin/Alpine section. If they are 3-4 tenths down on RB, Leclerc will be ahead of Perez in most tracks (given Perez is 4-5 tenths behind Max on qualifying). So, you can expect more P4-P5 Qualy positions, beating Norris & occasional podiums as well.

That is an optimistic scenario assuming significant engine upgrades gains + Not Much upgrades from other teams !
Based on your calculations (I am not saying they are wrong), Ferrari has a PU that is 40bhp down.
Interesting.
According to Duchessa, closer to 25hp.

tpe
tpe
-2
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:24 pm
Location: Greece

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Well, I know it's complicated, especially since we saw that in Britain's GP CL almost won, but if the deficit is only 25bhp and on average 10bhp worth 0.1 (I doubt it but let's assume that this is the case), it means that Ferrari is 0.250 behind Merc/RB. Which is not the case as we know.

Anyway, any gain it's important.

User avatar
Juzh
150
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:45 am

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

tpe wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:43 pm
Well, I know it's complicated, especially since we saw that in Britain's GP CL almost won, but if the deficit is only 25bhp and on average 10bhp worth 0.1 (I doubt it but let's assume that this is the case), it means that Ferrari is 0.250 behind Merc/RB. Which is not the case as we know.

Anyway, any gain it's important.
10hp is worth on average around 0.17s across all types of circuits. Theres a quote from 2015 from james allison mentioning 10hp is worth 0.1s in singapore which as we know is not a very power sensitive track. Another thing to consider is that power sensitivity has increased further in recent years with massively increased full throttle percentages and silly amounts of drag carried by modern cars.

Marty_Y
Marty_Y
28
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:37 pm

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post


User avatar
diffuser
168
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Juzh wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:42 pm
tpe wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:43 pm
Well, I know it's complicated, especially since we saw that in Britain's GP CL almost won, but if the deficit is only 25bhp and on average 10bhp worth 0.1 (I doubt it but let's assume that this is the case), it means that Ferrari is 0.250 behind Merc/RB. Which is not the case as we know.

Anyway, any gain it's important.
10hp is worth on average around 0.17s across all types of circuits. Theres a quote from 2015 from james allison mentioning 10hp is worth 0.1s in singapore which as we know is not a very power sensitive track. Another thing to consider is that power sensitivity has increased further in recent years with massively increased full throttle percentages and silly amounts of drag carried by modern cars.
To put that into perspective, braking 2 meters later in 1 corner is worth that too. Wheel spin out of corner might loose you .3 of a second. So really we're talking about vapor.

User avatar
Juzh
150
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:45 am

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

diffuser wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:49 pm
Juzh wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:42 pm
tpe wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:43 pm
Well, I know it's complicated, especially since we saw that in Britain's GP CL almost won, but if the deficit is only 25bhp and on average 10bhp worth 0.1 (I doubt it but let's assume that this is the case), it means that Ferrari is 0.250 behind Merc/RB. Which is not the case as we know.

Anyway, any gain it's important.
10hp is worth on average around 0.17s across all types of circuits. Theres a quote from 2015 from james allison mentioning 10hp is worth 0.1s in singapore which as we know is not a very power sensitive track. Another thing to consider is that power sensitivity has increased further in recent years with massively increased full throttle percentages and silly amounts of drag carried by modern cars.
To put that into perspective, braking 2 meters later in 1 corner is worth that too. Wheel spin out of corner might loose you .3 of a second. So really we're talking about vapor.
I don't think so. This year 1 tenth can mean 3-4 places on the grid, just look at hungary Q3 where 4 cars were within 0.08s, so all things being equal it's still better to have that extra hp than not.

anyway, here's the quote.

User avatar
ringo
204
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:57 am

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

It's not wise to use any rule of thumb for hp and track time. The cars and tyres have changed a lot since 2015. So there can be no correlation.
Aero, tyres, minimum weight, etc. Too many variables.
For Sure!!

User avatar
diffuser
168
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

ringo wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:57 am
It's not wise to use any rule of thumb for hp and track time. The cars and tyres have changed a lot since 2015. So there can be no correlation.
Aero, tyres, minimum weight, etc. Too many variables.
That was my point, you never know till you get to a track exactly what works. It always good to have more HP but it isn't always helpful.

User avatar
Juzh
150
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:45 am

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

diffuser wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:30 pm
ringo wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:57 am
It's not wise to use any rule of thumb for hp and track time. The cars and tyres have changed a lot since 2015. So there can be no correlation.
Aero, tyres, minimum weight, etc. Too many variables.
That was my point, you never know till you get to a track exactly what works. It always good to have more HP but it isn't always helpful.
lol wut? This sentence doesn't make any sense. How is having more hp not pretty much universally better than having less? It always helps in some capacity.