Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Jolle
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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It’s the team. People who design the car, people who get the best out of it at the racing team, a group of drivers to transfer that to a track, commercial people who get the funding and the drivers at the races that are part of these interconnecting teams to perform their best.

As in most teams, not all positions are essential for short term succes but they are for succes over an extended period. What is unfair that most people just see the driver.
The car itself is a product of this team.
Put Hamilton in a Williams and they will still be at the back. Give a Williams to the Mercedes team, within half a season it’s on the podium.

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nzjrs
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Jolle wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:07 pm
Give a Williams to the Mercedes team, within half a season it’s on the podium.
Interesting claim. What's the budget?

ncx
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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nzjrs wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:04 am
Jolle wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:07 pm
Give a Williams to the Mercedes team, within half a season it’s on the podium.
Interesting claim. What's the budget?
How much could blue and white paints cost more than pink? :-"

cooken
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Zynerji wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:11 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:08 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:56 pm


Idiocy.
Doesn't change the fact its correct though does it :roll:
There isn't a driver in F1 that wouldn't finish in the top 2 in the Mercedes.
https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... ivers.html

Hey look I found one. But facts be damned right?

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NathanOlder
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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cooken wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:31 am
Zynerji wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:11 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:08 pm


Doesn't change the fact its correct though does it :roll:
There isn't a driver in F1 that wouldn't finish in the top 2 in the Mercedes.
https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... ivers.html

Hey look I found one. But facts be damned right?
and the year before.
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NathanOlder
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Zynerji wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:11 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:08 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:56 pm


Idiocy.
Doesn't change the fact its correct though does it :roll:
Playing percentage games with 2 car teams doesn't prove a point beyond semantic nitpicking.

There isn't a driver in F1 that wouldn't finish in the top 2 in the Mercedes.

It makes me heave that, for years, all we heard about 4 time WDC Vettel on this forum was "Its the car! Its the car!"

Now that it's obviously THE CAR again, it's different because of who the driver it.

Fanboi, smirking inconsistencies of this type strike me only one way.... As idiocy.
I think 2017 and 2018 go a long way to show the differences , plus add to that the way Seb melted in 14, 19 and 20 when he had competition within the team.
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aMessageToCharlie
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:21 am
Zynerji wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:11 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:08 pm


Doesn't change the fact its correct though does it :roll:
Playing percentage games with 2 car teams doesn't prove a point beyond semantic nitpicking.

There isn't a driver in F1 that wouldn't finish in the top 2 in the Mercedes.

It makes me heave that, for years, all we heard about 4 time WDC Vettel on this forum was "Its the car! Its the car!"

Now that it's obviously THE CAR again, it's different because of who the driver it.

Fanboi, smirking inconsistencies of this type strike me only one way.... As idiocy.
I think 2017 and 2018 go a long way to show the differences , plus add to that the way Seb melted in 14, 19 and 20 when he had competition within the team.
I don't think it's fair, bashing Vettel based on the 2017 and 2018 seasons. Ferrari was always playing catch-up and their operational performance was never up to Mercedes' level of excellence. Ferrari's strategy team hasn't become a clown meme for no reason.

Obviously it's easier to keep a cool head when you’re driving the fastest car in the most professionally run team ever.

Better comparison would be Vettel's 2017 vs. Hamilton's 2011.

2011
- 12 for Red Bull (11x Vettel, 1x Webber)
- 6 wins for Mclaren (3x Button, 3x Hamilton)

2017
- 12 wins for Mercedes (9x Hamilton, 3x Bottas)
- 5 wins for Ferrari (Vettel)

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NathanOlder
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:35 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:21 am
Zynerji wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:11 pm


Playing percentage games with 2 car teams doesn't prove a point beyond semantic nitpicking.

There isn't a driver in F1 that wouldn't finish in the top 2 in the Mercedes.

It makes me heave that, for years, all we heard about 4 time WDC Vettel on this forum was "Its the car! Its the car!"

Now that it's obviously THE CAR again, it's different because of who the driver it.

Fanboi, smirking inconsistencies of this type strike me only one way.... As idiocy.
I think 2017 and 2018 go a long way to show the differences , plus add to that the way Seb melted in 14, 19 and 20 when he had competition within the team.
I don't think it's fair, bashing Vettel based on the 2017 and 2018 seasons. Ferrari was always playing catch-up and their operational performance was never up to Mercedes' level of excellence. Ferrari's strategy team hasn't become a clown meme for no reason.

Obviously it's easier to keep a cool head when you’re driving the fastest car in the most professionally run team ever.

Better comparison would be Vettel's 2017 vs. Hamilton's 2011.

2011
- 12 for Red Bull (11x Vettel, 1x Webber)
- 6 wins for Mclaren (3x Button, 3x Hamilton)

2017
- 12 wins for Mercedes (9x Hamilton, 3x Bottas)
- 5 wins for Ferrari (Vettel)
2011 saw the redbull starting on pole in 95% of the races.
Mercedes in 2017 managed 75%.
Lewis definitely had his worst year in his F1 career, and luckily it was a 1 off. He obviously learnt his lesson and moved on. Seb has had multiple years of poor driving.
Seb got his 4 titles and deserved it, since then he hasn't reached those heights for one reason or another, and that's why I don't rate Seb equal to the likes of Lewis and Fernando. Thats not bashing Seb, its just not praising him to the heights of others
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aMessageToCharlie
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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I dont think these 3 poles difference break the comparison.

The argument is, that it's easier to be error free in a dominant team, than in a lesser organization chasing the dominant team. And Lewis in 2011 vs. Lewis in 2017-2020 is a great example for that.
He has had a hard time in the slightly slower Mclaren, but ran away with it in the dominant Mercedes. Just like Seb had a hard time in the slightly slower Ferrari, but ran away with it in the dominant Red Bull.

F1 is a team sport and if the team isnt performing at 100%, then of course the driver will be at a disadvantage, making mistakes trying to make up the deficit. Same story in 2011 vs. 2017. It's easier to look good with the comfort of having the best team around you.

Objectively these seasons are as compareable as it gets and the results were quite similar.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:37 pm
I dont think these 3 poles difference break the comparison.

The argument is, that it's easier to be error free in a dominant team, than in a lesser organization chasing the dominant team. And Lewis in 2011 vs. Lewis in 2017-2020 is a great example for that.
He has had a hard time in the slightly slower Mclaren, but ran away with it in the dominant Mercedes. Just like Seb had a hard time in the slightly slower Ferrari, but ran away with it in the dominant Red Bull.

F1 is a team sport and if the team isnt performing at 100%, then of course the driver will be at a disadvantage, making mistakes trying to make up the deficit. Same story in 2011 vs. 2017. It's easier to look good with the comfort of having the best team around you.

Objectively these seasons are as compareable as it gets and the results were quite similar.
So 2011 the Mclaren was 'slightly slower' as you say, like the Ferrari was in 2017.

Look at both years..... Look at the gaps.
Lets take Catalunya as its a good all round circuit.
2011 Spanish Grand Prix
Fastest Mclaren to fastest redbull 1 second in qualy.
2017 Spanish Grand Prix
Fastest Ferrari to fastest Mercedes 0.051

British GP 2011 gap was 1.5 seconds!
British GP 2017 gap was 0.547


And you call them the same, yeah ok buddy.

The 2011 RedBull was a proper dominant car, like the Merc in 14-16 or 19 and 20. The 17 and 18 years were very close, like the 2010 season
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Zynerji
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:26 pm
aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:37 pm
I dont think these 3 poles difference break the comparison.

The argument is, that it's easier to be error free in a dominant team, than in a lesser organization chasing the dominant team. And Lewis in 2011 vs. Lewis in 2017-2020 is a great example for that.
He has had a hard time in the slightly slower Mclaren, but ran away with it in the dominant Mercedes. Just like Seb had a hard time in the slightly slower Ferrari, but ran away with it in the dominant Red Bull.

F1 is a team sport and if the team isnt performing at 100%, then of course the driver will be at a disadvantage, making mistakes trying to make up the deficit. Same story in 2011 vs. 2017. It's easier to look good with the comfort of having the best team around you.

Objectively these seasons are as compareable as it gets and the results were quite similar.
So 2011 the Mclaren was 'slightly slower' as you say, like the Ferrari was in 2017.

Look at both years..... Look at the gaps.
Lets take Catalunya as its a good all round circuit.
2011 Spanish Grand Prix
Fastest Mclaren to fastest redbull 1 second in qualy.
2017 Spanish Grand Prix
Fastest Ferrari to fastest Mercedes 0.051

British GP 2011 gap was 1.5 seconds!
British GP 2017 gap was 0.547


And you call them the same, yeah ok buddy.

The 2011 RedBull was a proper dominant car, like the Merc in 14-16 or 19 and 20. The 17 and 18 years were very close, like the 2010 season
Pole time gaps can't be compared between 2011 and 2017.

In 2011, drivers had unlimited DRS anywhere on the track in Quali. The 2017 drivers did not have that ability, so the dominant downforce cars couldn't exploit it like they could in 2011.

aMessageToCharlie
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:26 pm
aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:37 pm
I dont think these 3 poles difference break the comparison.

The argument is, that it's easier to be error free in a dominant team, than in a lesser organization chasing the dominant team. And Lewis in 2011 vs. Lewis in 2017-2020 is a great example for that.
He has had a hard time in the slightly slower Mclaren, but ran away with it in the dominant Mercedes. Just like Seb had a hard time in the slightly slower Ferrari, but ran away with it in the dominant Red Bull.

F1 is a team sport and if the team isnt performing at 100%, then of course the driver will be at a disadvantage, making mistakes trying to make up the deficit. Same story in 2011 vs. 2017. It's easier to look good with the comfort of having the best team around you.

Objectively these seasons are as compareable as it gets and the results were quite similar.
So 2011 the Mclaren was 'slightly slower' as you say, like the Ferrari was in 2017.

Look at both years..... Look at the gaps.
Lets take Catalunya as its a good all round circuit.
2011 Spanish Grand Prix
Fastest Mclaren to fastest redbull 1 second in qualy.
2017 Spanish Grand Prix
Fastest Ferrari to fastest Mercedes 0.051

British GP 2011 gap was 1.5 seconds!
British GP 2017 gap was 0.547


And you call them the same, yeah ok buddy.

The 2011 RedBull was a proper dominant car, like the Merc in 14-16 or 19 and 20. The 17 and 18 years were very close, like the 2010 season
How about looking at what actually matters and where points are given out: the race. Buddy.

Your example:
2011 Spanish Grand Prix

Race result:
1. Sebastian Vettel 1:39:03.301
2. Lewis Hamilton +0.630

Fastest lap:
Lewis Hamilton 1:26.727

2017 Spanish Grand Prix

Race result:
1. Lewis Hamilton 1:35:56.497
2. Sebastian Vettel +3.490

Fastest lap:
Lewis Hamilton 1:23.593

The 2017 Mercedes was just as dominant as the 2011 Red Bull.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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So is this about proving Vettel is good/underrated and/or that Hamilton is bad/overrated?
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Zynerji
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:33 pm
So is this about proving Vettel is good/underrated and/or that Hamilton is bad/overrated?
No. Just that even an above average driver can win in a dominant car, but a dominant driver can not win in a below average car(WDC).

Hamilton’s contract demands are simply outrageous for what he's driving, and what he's set to lose (8xWDC all-time record).

I say, call his bluff, sign Russell for 2021, and let Lewis sit out and watch George win the WDC. Then sign Hamilton for 2022-2023 at a discount to replace Bottas.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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The problem with the whole "dominant car" argument is that it applies to all. Would Alonso or Hamilton have won multiple titles in the early-2000s Ferrari? Yes. Does that mean that Schumacher's record is rubbish? Or that Senna's is rubbish - he only won titles in top cars after all.

What matters is what a driver does with the opportunity. Not all drivers have it in them to perform for years at a time. It's very easy to take your eye off the ball and suddenly you're on the back foot. Performing at the peak for long periods is what sets the very best from the rest of the best.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"