Silly season 2021-2022-2023

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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NathanOlder
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:51 pm
The problem with the whole "dominant car" argument is that it applies to all. Would Alonso or Hamilton have won multiple titles in the early-2000s Ferrari? Yes. Does that mean that Schumacher's record is rubbish? Or that Senna's is rubbish - he only won titles in top cars after all.

What matters is what a driver does with the opportunity. Not all drivers have it in them to perform for years at a time. It's very easy to take your eye off the ball and suddenly you're on the back foot. Performing at the peak for long periods is what sets the very best from the rest of the best.
Exactly, no one ever seemed to use the dominant car factor to try and discredit Michael or Ayrton, but there are plenty to try and lower Lewis' achievements.
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NathanOlder
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:23 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:26 pm
aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:37 pm
I dont think these 3 poles difference break the comparison.

The argument is, that it's easier to be error free in a dominant team, than in a lesser organization chasing the dominant team. And Lewis in 2011 vs. Lewis in 2017-2020 is a great example for that.
He has had a hard time in the slightly slower Mclaren, but ran away with it in the dominant Mercedes. Just like Seb had a hard time in the slightly slower Ferrari, but ran away with it in the dominant Red Bull.

F1 is a team sport and if the team isnt performing at 100%, then of course the driver will be at a disadvantage, making mistakes trying to make up the deficit. Same story in 2011 vs. 2017. It's easier to look good with the comfort of having the best team around you.

Objectively these seasons are as compareable as it gets and the results were quite similar.
So 2011 the Mclaren was 'slightly slower' as you say, like the Ferrari was in 2017.

Look at both years..... Look at the gaps.
Lets take Catalunya as its a good all round circuit.
2011 Spanish Grand Prix
Fastest Mclaren to fastest redbull 1 second in qualy.
2017 Spanish Grand Prix
Fastest Ferrari to fastest Mercedes 0.051

British GP 2011 gap was 1.5 seconds!
British GP 2017 gap was 0.547


And you call them the same, yeah ok buddy.

The 2011 RedBull was a proper dominant car, like the Merc in 14-16 or 19 and 20. The 17 and 18 years were very close, like the 2010 season
How about looking at what actually matters and where points are given out: the race. Buddy.

Your example:
2011 Spanish Grand Prix

Race result:
1. Sebastian Vettel 1:39:03.301
2. Lewis Hamilton +0.630

Fastest lap:
Lewis Hamilton 1:26.727

2017 Spanish Grand Prix

Race result:
1. Lewis Hamilton 1:35:56.497
2. Sebastian Vettel +3.490

Fastest lap:
Lewis Hamilton 1:23.593

The 2017 Mercedes was just as dominant as the 2011 Red Bull.
If you honestly think the 2011 RedBull was only just faster than the Mclaren of 2011 then you need to go back and have a look mate.

2017 and 2018 you could say over the season Mercedes had the edge but that was all it was.

2011 RedBull knocked it out the park.
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Zynerji
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:08 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:51 pm
The problem with the whole "dominant car" argument is that it applies to all. Would Alonso or Hamilton have won multiple titles in the early-2000s Ferrari? Yes. Does that mean that Schumacher's record is rubbish? Or that Senna's is rubbish - he only won titles in top cars after all.

What matters is what a driver does with the opportunity. Not all drivers have it in them to perform for years at a time. It's very easy to take your eye off the ball and suddenly you're on the back foot. Performing at the peak for long periods is what sets the very best from the rest of the best.
Exactly, no one ever seemed to use the dominant car factor to try and discredit Michael or Ayrton, but there are plenty to try and lower Lewis' achievements.
They objectively did it to Vettel. I've seen it with my own eyes.

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aMessageToCharlie
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:58 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:08 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:51 pm
The problem with the whole "dominant car" argument is that it applies to all. Would Alonso or Hamilton have won multiple titles in the early-2000s Ferrari? Yes. Does that mean that Schumacher's record is rubbish? Or that Senna's is rubbish - he only won titles in top cars after all.

What matters is what a driver does with the opportunity. Not all drivers have it in them to perform for years at a time. It's very easy to take your eye off the ball and suddenly you're on the back foot. Performing at the peak for long periods is what sets the very best from the rest of the best.
Exactly, no one ever seemed to use the dominant car factor to try and discredit Michael or Ayrton, but there are plenty to try and lower Lewis' achievements.
They objectively did it to Vettel. I've seen it with my own eyes.
This. Vettel has been bashed for years and years how he was only winning because of Newey's cars. And it probably even were the same people who are now getting triggered every time someone points out just how dominant the Mercedes is.

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NathanOlder
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Location: Kent

Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:36 am
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:58 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:08 am


Exactly, no one ever seemed to use the dominant car factor to try and discredit Michael or Ayrton, but there are plenty to try and lower Lewis' achievements.
They objectively did it to Vettel. I've seen it with my own eyes.
This. Vettel has been bashed for years and years how he was only winning because of Newey's cars. And it probably even were the same people who are now getting triggered every time someone points out just how dominant the Mercedes is.
Not bashing or anything, but Vettel did only win in Newey cars :lol:
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Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

aMessageToCharlie
aMessageToCharlie
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:58 am
aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:36 am
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:58 am


They objectively did it to Vettel. I've seen it with my own eyes.
This. Vettel has been bashed for years and years how he was only winning because of Newey's cars. And it probably even were the same people who are now getting triggered every time someone points out just how dominant the Mercedes is.
Not bashing or anything, but Vettel did only win in Newey cars :lol:
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:26 pm
yeah ok buddy.
Didnt know Newey joined Ferrari for 2015.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:16 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:58 am
aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:36 am


This. Vettel has been bashed for years and years how he was only winning because of Newey's cars. And it probably even were the same people who are now getting triggered every time someone points out just how dominant the Mercedes is.
Not bashing or anything, but Vettel did only win in Newey cars :lol:
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:26 pm
yeah ok buddy.
Didnt know Newey joined Ferrari for 2015.
Didnt know Vettel won a championship in 2015. Guess we all learn things everyday, thanks for that
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Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

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Zynerji
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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See. It is obviously a fanboi pissing match here... Nothing worse than that on a technical forum..🙄

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El Scorchio
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Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:08 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:51 pm
The problem with the whole "dominant car" argument is that it applies to all. Would Alonso or Hamilton have won multiple titles in the early-2000s Ferrari? Yes. Does that mean that Schumacher's record is rubbish? Or that Senna's is rubbish - he only won titles in top cars after all.

What matters is what a driver does with the opportunity. Not all drivers have it in them to perform for years at a time. It's very easy to take your eye off the ball and suddenly you're on the back foot. Performing at the peak for long periods is what sets the very best from the rest of the best.
Exactly, no one ever seemed to use the dominant car factor to try and discredit Michael or Ayrton, but there are plenty to try and lower Lewis' achievements.
Exactly this. You have to judge them all the same rather than picking and choosing when the 'it's the car' argument counts.

Would any of Schumacher, Senna, Prost or Hamilton have won multiple titles in a back of the field level car? Of course not. They proved themselves to be worthy of the drive in a top car from day one, and when they got there, they nailed it consistantly to stay in the top cars. At ANY time if their teams thought there was a better option available, they'd have been dropped like a stone in favour of someone else.

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dans79
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:42 pm
See. It is obviously a fanboi pissing match here... Nothing worse than that on a technical forum..🙄
You aren't making the issue any better with posts like this!
183 103 103 7

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Zynerji
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:30 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:42 pm
See. It is obviously a fanboi pissing match here... Nothing worse than that on a technical forum..🙄
You aren't making the issue any better with posts like this!
For sure. Calling it out as bad behavior makes it worse... But only to the fanbois that are engaging in the rhetoric in the first place...🙄

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dans79
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:51 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:30 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:42 pm
See. It is obviously a fanboi pissing match here... Nothing worse than that on a technical forum..🙄
You aren't making the issue any better with posts like this!
For sure. Calling it out as bad behavior makes it worse... But only to the fanbois that are engaging in the rhetoric in the first place...🙄

says they guy using inference to call people idiots.........
183 103 103 7

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hollus
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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The last two pages are an off topic fan pissing match between H and V fans.

There was already another thread for that, certainly, do not have that fight in this thread.
In my opinion, that fight doesn't need to be had at all, but one thing is for sure: it is unlikely to be won by anyone. Does that make it futile?

Stop carrying it all over the forum.

Thank you.
I would like to see a paleontologist.

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Zynerji
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Shutting up now.

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ringo
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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I have a hunch Russel will never get into a Mercedes seat without scoring a podium elsewhere.
As Totto says, he needs to see consistency from Russel first. 1 points scoring in a Mercedes doesn't gaurantee a race seat in the team. Even Max had to show consistently good results in Torro Rosso before he was promoted.
So unless Williams gets it together then Russel may never have that chance. He may have to try to convince other teams in getting him a seat; such as Mclaren, Renault, Aston Martin.
Bottas also had to prove himself before being promoted. So I do not think anything is promised to Russel. He needs to show some results. It's too much of a risk to Mercedes.
For Sure!!