Mercedes W12

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
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El Scorchio
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Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: Mercedes W12

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Tvetovnato wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:58 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:42 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:05 pm
If you see the tree on the right of the car where it casts shadow on the car while they come to turn 4
Ít momentarily obliterates the sunlight and makes the supposedly gap in the wing vanish

So that explains that its light which is seen in the wing edge
Unless now the claim will be that Merc has a system which only activates under direct sun light :? :lol:
https://im4.ezgif.com/tmp/ezgif-4-9d5ba9d05981.gif
To add- if there's a gap, then how are any scratch marks being created by the wing which is not touching the endplates?
Indeed, this is also a good point that no one seems to care about for some reason.
Totally! To say the evidence is a gap, and also the evidence is a scratch mark seems totally at odds with any consistent theory. It's impossible to have both things going on. How can something scratch something if it's not touching it? The Mercedes car is complex and engineers are good, but not that good(!)

wesley123
wesley123
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Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:55 pm

Re: Mercedes W12

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:47 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:26 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:10 pm


By the time the car comes out of the corner it's already doing more than 265 kph so much of the bending has already taken place behind the closed upper flap, that's why it's so hard to notice.
So now the claim is its hidden and no one can see it!.. then how do people know its there :lol:
It’s clear to see in this movie. Just like the other one. You do see the top bend down and also the gap on the side move. We have the scratch pattern to match, the high res pictures from behind, the incredible speed difference and the new wing test introduced.
It definitely isn't 'clear to see'. While you might be able to spot something, due to the wing flutter, graphical anomalies etc., it isn't possible to create a measurable point from which you can visually prove anything is flexing in a way the rules did not intend.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Curbstone
Curbstone
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:40 am

Re: Mercedes W12

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:42 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:05 pm
If you see the tree on the right of the car where it casts shadow on the car while they come to turn 4
Ít momentarily obliterates the sunlight and makes the supposedly gap in the wing vanish

So that explains that its light which is seen in the wing edge
Unless now the claim will be that Merc has a system which only activates under direct sun light :? :lol:
https://im4.ezgif.com/tmp/ezgif-4-9d5ba9d05981.gif
To add- if there's a gap, then how are any scratch marks being created by the wing which is not touching the endplates?
The scratches don't occur when there is no contact, obviously. But if a gap can occur, that means the wing element isn't fixed of the endplate. If it is isn't fixed the parts can move compared to eachother. Ift it's not fixed but does have contact, the differential movement will cause scratches. This is not caused by movements perpendicular to the endplate, but by movements in the plane of the endplate.
Point is, the scratches (can) occur due to the movement of the main plane. This is not allowed.

PhillipM
PhillipM
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Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: Mercedes W12

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And why are none of these people shouting "There's a gap!" even realising the main plane of the wing doesn't even meet the endplates anyway - there's a slim strip of wing with like 3-4 elements to take advantage of the endplate regs...

Image

Bit tricky that one.
Last edited by PhillipM on Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

PhillipM
PhillipM
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Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: Mercedes W12

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Curbstone wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:09 pm
Point is, the scratches (can) occur due to the movement of the main plane. This is not allowed.
Or it's dirt from seperation in the airflow over the wing left on the endplate.
Or it's marks from the wing being set in a more shallow position for another track (because they use wings in multiple positions and the endplates have multiple mounting points to accomodate it - saves building new plates and wings for every single track)

MadEd
MadEd
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Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:08 pm

Re: Mercedes W12

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Could be that the sideplates part because of the pressure at high speeds. Only when these sideplates part (move towards the outside) there becomes room for the lower plate to move backwards/downwards. That would leave scratchmarks while these sideplates slowly move outwards with increasing airpressure. Also that would allow MB to pass new flex-tests while being stationary. Being stationary there is no force pushing the sideplates outwards.

Tvetovnato
Tvetovnato
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Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:03 pm

Re: Mercedes W12

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:04 pm
Tvetovnato wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:58 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:42 pm


To add- if there's a gap, then how are any scratch marks being created by the wing which is not touching the endplates?
Indeed, this is also a good point that no one seems to care about for some reason.
Totally! To say the evidence is a gap, and also the evidence is a scratch mark seems totally at odds with any consistent theory. It's impossible to have both things going on. How can something scratch something if it's not touching it? The Mercedes car is complex and engineers are good, but not that good(!)
And as I said, the ”gap” is only showing when Hamilton is turning the car slightly, which indicates the sunlight is at play.

Curbstone
Curbstone
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:40 am

Re: Mercedes W12

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It may be dirt, it may be damage from a different positioned main plain, those are all possible explanations, but I haven't seen similar 'scratches' at other teams rear wings and that's what bugs me.

Curbstone
Curbstone
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:40 am

Re: Mercedes W12

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Tvetovnato wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:48 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:39 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:26 pm


So now the claim is its hidden and no one can see it!.. then how do people know its there :lol:
Exactly. 'I don't need to prove in any way that it's there, but it definitely is because I say so.'

Just like no-one can prove the illegal launch control system on the RB16B exists, but it's definitely got one because their starts are 'too good'. It's very easy to start this stuff rolling. (Disclaimer- it doesn't. Probably.)
The so called gap appears only when Lewis turns slighty to the right to get out of Max’s tow, which indicates that it’s the sunlight playing a trick. The other footage I’ve seen is shown at the start of the main straight, which starts as a long corner. The gap appears when he is turning. And it will probably appear when not turning too since you only have to travel a few hundred metres to get a different light on the car.
The shadow on other parts of the car doesn't change. If you want to have a change in the angle of the sunlight while traveling in a straight line, you would have to travel for a lot km's (or wait for half an hour, that also does the trick).

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dans79
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: Mercedes W12

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Curbstone wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:24 pm
It may be dirt, it may be damage from a different positioned main plain, those are all possible explanations, but I haven't seen similar 'scratches' at other teams rear wings and that's what bugs me.
Have you seen any shots of the back of other cars rear wings that close? I haven't!
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AnthonyG
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Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:16 pm

Re: Mercedes W12

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:47 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:26 pm


So now the claim is its hidden and no one can see it!.. then how do people know its there :lol:
It’s clear to see in this movie. Just like the other one. You do see the top bend down and also the gap on the side move. We have the scratch pattern to match, the high res pictures from behind, the incredible speed difference and the new wing test introduced.
Just place your cursor on the wing as a reference, there isn't one bit of noticeable movement.
Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W12

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:47 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:26 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:10 pm


By the time the car comes out of the corner it's already doing more than 265 kph so much of the bending has already taken place behind the closed upper flap, that's why it's so hard to notice.
So now the claim is its hidden and no one can see it!.. then how do people know its there :lol:
It’s clear to see in this movie. Just like the other one. You do see the top bend down and also the gap on the side move. We have the scratch pattern to match, the high res pictures from behind, the incredible speed difference and the new wing test introduced.
There is no movement. Put your cursor on the rear edge of the lower plane of the wing when the DRS flap opens and watch the edge of the plane stay in the same place except for vibrations that all wings have on all of the cars.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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RZS10
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Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:23 am

Re: Mercedes W12

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There is movement but it's the entire wing, looks like it moves up in Max' slipstream.
Image

This is the silly three second video which some see as "proof" of "cheating".

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dans79
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: Mercedes W12

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RZS10 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:04 pm
There is movement but it's the entire wing, looks like it moves up in Max' slipstream.
https://i.imgur.com/DT8okeB.gif

This is the silly three second video which some see as "proof" of "cheating".
Excellent work yet again!
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Mchamilton
Mchamilton
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Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:16 pm

Re: Mercedes W12

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RZS10 wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:04 pm
There is movement but it's the entire wing, looks like it moves up in Max' slipstream.
https://i.imgur.com/DT8okeB.gif

This is the silly three second video which some see as "proof" of "cheating".
Yep thet movement is whne he moved in and out of max' slipstream, i pointed out a clip of the RB rear wing doing the same thing in another thread