Mercedes W12

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De Jokke
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Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:51 am

Re: Mercedes W12

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scarbs wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:03 am
De Jokke wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:19 pm
It's still not clear;
They didn't use the tokens:

a) not used and have been stupid
b) not used, but could use the time/money/research for 2022 instead

what is it?

thanks
The tokens were intended for a new nose, after problems with it, it wasn't introduced and the tokens remained unspent
So a lost cause then :roll:
Mercedes AMG + Hamilton => dreamteam!
If you can't beat'em, call Masi!

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De Jokke
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Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:51 am

Re: Mercedes W12

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Tvetovnato wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:25 pm
scarbs wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:03 am
De Jokke wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:19 pm
It's still not clear;
They didn't use the tokens:

a) not used and have been stupid
b) not used, but could use the time/money/research for 2022 instead

what is it?

thanks
The tokens were intended for a new nose, after problems with it, it wasn't introduced and the tokens remained unspent
Are there any details or speculation of what the new nose would have looked like or what they would try to achieve with it?
Could there be parts of this new nose used for 2022 or is too different all the way?
Mercedes AMG + Hamilton => dreamteam!
If you can't beat'em, call Masi!

SuperCNJ
SuperCNJ
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Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:36 pm

Re: Mercedes W12

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De Jokke wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:52 pm
Tvetovnato wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:25 pm
scarbs wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:03 am

The tokens were intended for a new nose, after problems with it, it wasn't introduced and the tokens remained unspent
Are there any details or speculation of what the new nose would have looked like or what they would try to achieve with it?
Could there be parts of this new nose used for 2022 or is too different all the way?
I suspect with the way the front wing attaches to the side of the nose in 2022, probably requires a different aero concept and will likely mean the 2021 nose won't be reused.

bonjon1979
bonjon1979
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Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:16 pm

Re: Mercedes W12

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SuperCNJ wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:09 pm
De Jokke wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:52 pm
Tvetovnato wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:25 pm


Are there any details or speculation of what the new nose would have looked like or what they would try to achieve with it?
Could there be parts of this new nose used for 2022 or is too different all the way?
I suspect with the way the front wing attaches to the side of the nose in 2022, probably requires a different aero concept and will likely mean the 2021 nose won't be reused.
I thought the new car was a totally new concept so no token spend needed on car design?

Tom145145
Tom145145
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Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: UK

Re: Mercedes W12

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bonjon1979 wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:43 pm
SuperCNJ wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:09 pm
De Jokke wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:52 pm


Could there be parts of this new nose used for 2022 or is too different all the way?
I suspect with the way the front wing attaches to the side of the nose in 2022, probably requires a different aero concept and will likely mean the 2021 nose won't be reused.
I thought the new car was a totally new concept so no token spend needed on car design?
That’s correct, there is no reason not to spend it on the W12 other than:

1) They tried to but failed to get it on the car, ie new nose.
2) Didn’t need/want to and so saved the development cost.
3) Combination of 1) & 2) ie development dead-end so stopped spending.
4) Spent it but it was hidden.

These are my likely scenarios, my gut feeling is that it came down to budget and the fact the floor/rear brake duct losses were what they needed to spend the budget on. It may well have been used in a season without the budget cap.

bosyber
bosyber
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Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:41 pm

Re: Mercedes W12

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Tom145145 wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:12 pm
bonjon1979 wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:43 pm
SuperCNJ wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:09 pm


I suspect with the way the front wing attaches to the side of the nose in 2022, probably requires a different aero concept and will likely mean the 2021 nose won't be reused.
I thought the new car was a totally new concept so no token spend needed on car design?
That’s correct, there is no reason not to spend it on the W12 other than:

1) They tried to but failed to get it on the car, ie new nose.
2) Didn’t need/want to and so saved the development cost.
3) Combination of 1) & 2) ie development dead-end so stopped spending.
4) Spent it but it was hidden.

These are my likely scenarios, my gut feeling is that it came down to budget and the fact the floor/rear brake duct losses were what they needed to spend the budget on. It may well have been used in a season without the budget cap.
From the interview it sounded more like 2), esp. the latter part, though that doesn't rule out 1) happening before that, ie. 3)

I do think that it turned out that nose wasn't the main thing that would help them improve, so it would have been a bit of a waste of effort and money compared to spending time on setup and getting those tyres to work. (and with another article talking about how Imola from Bottas moved them to not doing a wet 18" tyre test, well maybe that's a bigger issue than we'd traditionally think for a team like Merc.)

I found it interesting how that interview also confirmed that the W12 in general has ran with a higher ride height than the W11 to be optimal, which is something many in here have been speculating about/mentioned.

cplchanb
cplchanb
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:13 pm

Re: Mercedes W12

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SuperCNJ wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:09 pm
De Jokke wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:52 pm
Tvetovnato wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:25 pm


Are there any details or speculation of what the new nose would have looked like or what they would try to achieve with it?
Could there be parts of this new nose used for 2022 or is too different all the way?
I suspect with the way the front wing attaches to the side of the nose in 2022, probably requires a different aero concept and will likely mean the 2021 nose won't be reused.
unless theres a completely unheard of cleaver interpretation to the rules, the front wing mainplanes are essentially attached to the side of the nose. The rules call for early 90s pre high nose looking noses.

Mat-tes
Mat-tes
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Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:17 pm

Re: Mercedes W12

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cplchanb wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:22 pm
SuperCNJ wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:09 pm
De Jokke wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:52 pm


Could there be parts of this new nose used for 2022 or is too different all the way?
I suspect with the way the front wing attaches to the side of the nose in 2022, probably requires a different aero concept and will likely mean the 2021 nose won't be reused.
unless theres a completely unheard of cleaver interpretation to the rules, the front wing mainplanes are essentially attached to the side of the nose. The rules call for early 90s pre high nose looking noses.
The way it looks in the rules, the front wing regulatory box intersects with the nose box, making the wing profile connect to the nose with a potential chamfer at the connection.
I would think things learnt with the current nose could still apply in term of constructing small crash structure, depends on how the teams will want to deal with the airflow going into the larger ventury tunnels.
Question will also be would the teams go for a nose that goes ahead of the front wing or shorter? Teams have some options there. From Mercedes philosophy since 2014 they've always gone for the shorter design so let's see what they go for next year.
F1 2022 rulebook wrote: 3.11.4 Front Wing Bodywork to Nose
Once both the complete Front Wing Bodywork and the assembly referred to Article 3.11.2 are fully defined, the Front Wing Bodywork and the Nose must be trimmed to each other, such that no overlapping surfaces remain. A fillet radius, up to 25mm, may be applied along the periphery of where these surfaces intersect. Once all surfaces are trimmed and filleted, only Nose bodywork and fillet and no part of the Front Wing Bodywork may remain directly above RS-CH-NOSE.
This is from a previous version of the regulation, but I don't think they changed the wording around the nose since this was published in February.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -02-19.pdf

seinfeld
seinfeld
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Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:16 pm

Re: Mercedes W12

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whats the deal with the trick rear suspension changing ride height mid straight. This is what was aiding the rear wing performance

how is this legal??

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SiLo
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Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:09 pm

Re: Mercedes W12

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seinfeld wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:48 pm
whats the deal with the trick rear suspension changing ride height mid straight. This is what was aiding the rear wing performance

how is this legal??
because it's entirely mechanical and not banned in the rules. Most of the teams run something similar, although usually more linear than the Mercedes interpretation.
Felipe Baby!

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Big Tea
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Mercedes W12

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seinfeld wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:48 pm
whats the deal with the trick rear suspension changing ride height mid straight. This is what was aiding the rear wing performance

how is this legal??
It is comparable to you lifting a heavy object at arm straight out at shoulder height or with arm hanging past your hip.
The second one is much easier even though your arm is the same length (leverage) and your strength is the same.

It is angles and centres.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.