Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
Hoffman900
Hoffman900
137
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:02 am

Re: FIA Rear Wing Test - 2021

Post

RZS10 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:56 pm
Nah the only thing that would flex the wing 'upward' would be it's own weight under a few G of braking - the forces are probably near negligible compared wto the downforce.
Especially considering that the aero forces on the rider of a MotoGP bike is more than enough to overcome them hitting a peak 2g’s in braking.

Sure the F1 car does more, but the rear wing weighs a lot less than a rider plus the rider isn’t producing downforce.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
509
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: FIA Rear Wing Test - 2021

Post

Dejaeger22 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:36 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:03 pm
Dejaeger22 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 1:42 pm


Yeah, but can’t you use the heat to achieve this effect?
Heat from where? Look where the exhaust pipe is and the direction of the air as it moves over the car. Pretty much impossible.

What they are doing to achieve the bending is quite simple actually. Take for example your legs. You can stand up straight and your knees wont bend. That is all 200 pounds of you or whatever you weigh. But if a friend pushes the back of your knee while you stand, it will bend easily even when under you weight. Simple mechanics.
The exhaust gases pretty much interact with the rear wing and its endplates. That’s where you get the heat energy from. I’m not saying that’s what is going on, but just an idea.

But why can’t it be replicated during static testing by the FIA? Is it something about the test itself you suggest?
Miniscule.
Whatever little heat radiation gets to the endplates is immediately counteracted by air cooling it at whatever hundred miles per hour.

If if it is heated enough it wont sag as much as it It will flop and vibrate side to side. (enplates bowing sideways).. And they will never come back..

In fact what u say is counter intuitive... No engineeeing is necessary.
Because as the car goes faster the endplate is cooled more. It would actually be softer in the corners not at the end of straights.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:05 am
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: FIA Rear Wing Test - 2021

Post

It looks to me as though the front edge of the rear wing is staying in roughly the same place vertically, which suggests that the bending is being achieved with the lower beam element. The wing itself is rigid (hence it passes the current tests), the new tests will load the wing differently....
That isn’t cheating, that is designing to the rules!!

Let’s hope for Mercedes sake they don’t apply load tests to the shark fin or T-wing....

Really interesting is the comparison of air box volume, but that could be a trick of the light.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

User avatar
RZS10
327
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:23 am

Re: FIA Rear Wing Test - 2021

Post

Do you mean the bright edge? I'd say that's just the reflection or lit area staying in the same spot with the element itself moving quite a bit. Just looking at the angle change of the endplate it's really clear that the entire wing is 'flexing' or rather tilting backwards.

Added a zoom and lines to the video which was posted previously

Last edited by RZS10 on Wed May 12, 2021 8:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
137
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:02 am

Re: FIA Rear Wing Test - 2021

Post

How does DRS vs non DRS data look from the races we’ve had so far?

One could presume DRS would have less of an effect on cars who are exploiting this the most.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
509
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: FIA Rear Wing Test - 2021

Post

You can actually see the space between the wings turning to a more open angle as the wing tilts back.

Analysts from all over the web have been talking about the steeper climb in speed the RB16B has versus its rivals as it goes into the higher gears. Could definitley be because of this wing. A sort of passive DRS.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

zibby43
zibby43
611
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: FIA Rear Wing Test - 2021

Post

Stu wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:52 pm
It looks to me as though the front edge of the rear wing is staying in roughly the same place vertically, which suggests that the bending is being achieved with the lower beam element. The wing itself is rigid (hence it passes the current tests), the new tests will load the wing differently....
That isn’t cheating, that is designing to the rules!!

Let’s hope for Mercedes sake they don’t apply load tests to the shark fin or T-wing....

Really interesting is the comparison of air box volume, but that could be a trick of the light.
What would be the advantage of the shark fin's flexibility? Or the t-wing for that matter?

Wouldn't you want a flow conditioner to be as stable as possible?

User avatar
SiLo
103
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:09 pm

Re: FIA Rear Wing Test - 2021

Post

RZS10 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:57 pm
Do you mean the bright edge? I'd say that's just the reflection or lit area staying in the same spot with the element itself moving quite a bit. Just looking at the angle change of the endplate it's really clear that the entire wing is 'flexing' or rather tilting backwards.

Added a zoom and lines to the video which was posted previously

That makes it so much more obvious, that is quite a lot of flex. Be really interesting to see if we can work out the angle of attack change and then guesstimate some l/d ratios from it.
Felipe Baby!

User avatar
RZS10
327
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:23 am

Re: FIA Rear Wing Test - 2021

Post

Wonder whether it's OK to just measure the angle change of the endplate in the pic i posted here (no)

viewtopic.php?p=970735#p970735

If the answer is yes (it isn't) then it's 10° (nope)

I was actually looking for a side view of the car to draw lines from the t-cam over the tip of the sharkfin ... heh
Last edited by RZS10 on Wed May 12, 2021 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
137
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:02 am

Re: FIA Rear Wing Test - 2021

Post

RZS10 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 9:45 pm
Wonder whether it's OK to just measure the angle change of the endplate in the pic i posted here

viewtopic.php?p=970735#p970735

If the answer is yes then it's 10°

I was actually looking for a side view of the car to draw lines from the t-cam over the tip of the sharkfin ... heh
There might be some lens distortion, so don’t forget that.

A camera pan from the end of a straightaway might be interesting.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
592
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: FIA Rear Wing Test - 2021

Post

Zynerji wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:02 pm
Still looks (to me) like the top cam cover mounts to the tub are pulling away at speed, pivoting around the bottom mounts, shotgun style, leading to the wing rotating backwards at the axle centerline.
iirc Lotus used this feature in the 1968 US GP - on Graham Hill's 3rd place car (though broken it won him the WDC)

the 'new and improved' FIA test seems inadequate - using only 1000N downforce etc

aircraft designers have spent the last 100 years making wings deform favourably in angle for any and all increases in lift
cfc being as highly anisotropic as desired is particularly handy for this


PS yes to the lens distortion
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Wed May 12, 2021 10:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
RZS10
327
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:23 am

Re: FIA Rear Wing Test - 2021

Post

Yea i'm quite sure not just the lens distortion but that the perspective changes the angle to some degree (pun intended)...

Realistically it's probably around ~3°
Last edited by RZS10 on Wed May 12, 2021 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dejaeger22
Dejaeger22
1
Joined: Wed May 05, 2021 7:03 am

Re: FIA Rear Wing Test - 2021

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:28 pm
Dejaeger22 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:36 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:03 pm


Heat from where? Look where the exhaust pipe is and the direction of the air as it moves over the car. Pretty much impossible.

What they are doing to achieve the bending is quite simple actually. Take for example your legs. You can stand up straight and your knees wont bend. That is all 200 pounds of you or whatever you weigh. But if a friend pushes the back of your knee while you stand, it will bend easily even when under you weight. Simple mechanics.
The exhaust gases pretty much interact with the rear wing and its endplates. That’s where you get the heat energy from. I’m not saying that’s what is going on, but just an idea.

But why can’t it be replicated during static testing by the FIA? Is it something about the test itself you suggest?
Miniscule.
Whatever little heat radiation gets to the endplates is immediately counteracted by air cooling it at whatever hundred miles per hour.

If if it is heated enough it wont sag as much as it It will flop and vibrate side to side. (enplates bowing sideways).. And they will never come back..

In fact what u say is counter intuitive... No engineeeing is necessary.
Because as the car goes faster the endplate is cooled more. It would actually be softer in the corners not at the end of straights.
Yeah I get your last point. I agree with you. Must be solely the FIA test than and how it is performed.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
509
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: FIA Rear Wing Test - 2021

Post

SiLo wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 9:26 pm
RZS10 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:57 pm
Do you mean the bright edge? I'd say that's just the reflection or lit area staying in the same spot with the element itself moving quite a bit. Just looking at the angle change of the endplate it's really clear that the entire wing is 'flexing' or rather tilting backwards.

Added a zoom and lines to the video which was posted previously

That makes it so much more obvious, that is quite a lot of flex. Be really interesting to see if we can work out the angle of attack change and then guesstimate some l/d ratios from it.
Drops about an inch maybe? If the wing is two feet deep. That's about 1/24 or about 2 degrees of tilt.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
378
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:54 am

Re: FIA Rear Wing Test - 2021

Post

Stu wrote:It looks to me as though the front edge of the rear wing is staying in roughly the same place vertically, which suggests that the bending is being achieved with the lower beam element. The wing itself is rigid (hence it passes the current tests), the new tests will load the wing differently....
That isn’t cheating, that is designing to the rules!!

Let’s hope for Mercedes sake they don’t apply load tests to the shark fin or T-wing....

Really interesting is the comparison of air box volume, but that could be a trick of the light.
They are not “cheating”... But is no different than when other innovations have been either banned or TD’s enacted to minimize or eliminate their impact (Mclaren’s F-Duct for example... Or Oil Burning in the Hybrid era).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk