2025 ... 4 wheel driven cars

[Zynerji]

It's possible but again, why. Sounds like a techno-wank to make the cars seem more "green" at the cost of more weight, bloat and lowered driver skill differential.

Triggers for the fronts means 100% skill, and you could move to 1/4 radius wheel hubs and integrate into the brake cooling/wheel rim, thus drastically saving on weight. Now, that battery...... Move to unlimited recovery, but Ultracapacitors ONLY. Limit the storage and encourage the collect in- dump out driving philosophy. Once again, all skill based changes.

[Pingguest]

Would it be possible ?

Why not? The Porsche 919 is fitted with electric motors at the front axle to overcome the turbo lag instead of using a MGU-H.

[Stu]

It's possible but again, why. Sounds like a techno-wank to make the cars seem more "green" at the cost of more weight, bloat and lowered driver skill differential.

Triggers for the fronts means 100% skill, and you could move to 1/4 radius wheel hubs and integrate into the brake cooling/wheel rim, thus drastically saving on weight. Now, that battery...... Move to unlimited recovery, but Ultracapacitors ONLY. Limit the storage and encourage the collect in- dump out driving philosophy. Once again, all skill based changes.

That would lead to some very interesting power usage strategies!! Fuel capacity could be reduced so that teams are forced to use either/or drive systems rather than working as a ‘boosted’ ICE.

[Stu]

Double post….

[JordanMugen]

Certainly a very cool idea, adding even more weight to those cars which are already massive tanks.

An increase of mass is the trend in the auto industry. Despite the simplicity of the electric motors themselves, unless battery energy density increases significantly then electric sportscars are likely to weigh more than their (polluting) liquid-fuel combustion engine counterparts.

How will it make the racing / show better?

It won't.

So yes, it's possible, but the question is why?

It's an engineering decision to reflect road-going sportscars like the NSX which are increasingly AWD hybrids with front axle energy recovery.

The Porsche 919 is fitted with electric motors at the front axle to overcome the turbo lag instead of using a MGU-H.

Similarly, the Honda NSX uses two electric motors at the front and one at the rear, which is a pretty standard hybrid sportscar layout (sometimes reversed with one electric motor + ICE at the front, and two electric motors at the rear).

Triggers for the fronts means 100% skill, and you could move to 1/4 radius wheel hubs and integrate into the brake cooling/wheel rim, thus drastically saving on weight. Now, that battery...... Move to unlimited recovery, but Ultracapacitors ONLY. Limit the storage and encourage the collect in- dump out driving philosophy. Once again, all skill based changes.

What do you mean triggers -- levers on the wheel for the driver to manually manage left front and right front regen, akin to a motorcycle rider managing front and rear braking independently?

I take it the skill will also be for the driver to manage energy recovery optimally, so they have more energy available to redeploy in traction zones?

That would lead to some very interesting power usage strategies!! Fuel capacity could be reduced so that teams are forced to use either/or drive systems rather than working as a ‘boosted’ ICE.

You seem confident in Crofty being able to explain this!

[Zynerji]

Triggers for the fronts means 100% skill, and you could move to 1/4 radius wheel hubs and integrate into the brake cooling/wheel rim, thus drastically saving on weight. Now, that battery...... Move to unlimited recovery, but Ultracapacitors ONLY. Limit the storage and encourage the collect in- dump out driving philosophy. Once again, all skill based changes.

What do you mean triggers -- levers on the wheel for the driver to manually manage left front and right front regen, akin to a motorcycle rider managing front and rear braking independently?

I take it the skill will also be for the driver to manage energy recovery optimally, so they have more energy available to redeploy in traction zones?

Triggers like on an xBox controller, built into the steering wheel.

Yes, they could use it for regen, but I would rather see it done as a "boost". IE: In a left hand turn, pulling the trigger on the right side of the steering wheel would slow down the left-rear wheel through the diff, and speed up the right front wheel through the electric hub motor. This would allow the drivers to take a dozen different lines through a corner, and allow more on track passing attempts. I think it could be a thing, as it would be 100% under the driver skill to control.

PS: I think it would solve the "track limits" issue as well.

[Hoffman900]

Certainly a very cool idea, adding even more weight to those cars which are already massive tanks.

An increase of mass is the trend in the auto industry. Despite the simplicity of the electric motors themselves, unless battery energy density increases significantly then electric sportscars are likely to weigh more than their (polluting) liquid-fuel combustion engine counterparts.

How will it make the racing / show better?

It won't.

So yes, it's possible, but the question is why?

It's an engineering decision to reflect road-going sportscars like the NSX which are increasingly AWD hybrids with front axle energy recovery.

The Porsche 919 is fitted with electric motors at the front axle to overcome the turbo lag instead of using a MGU-H.

Similarly, the Honda NSX uses two electric motors at the front and one at the rear, which is a pretty standard hybrid sportscar layout (sometimes reversed with one electric motor + ICE at the front, and two electric motors at the rear).

Except F1 has never had any connection to road cars. It trying to has only left it confused, overly complicated, and left us with the bloated mess we have now.

[Just_a_fan]

Triggers for the fronts means 100% skill, and you could move to 1/4 radius wheel hubs and integrate into the brake cooling/wheel rim, thus drastically saving on weight. Now, that battery...... Move to unlimited recovery, but Ultracapacitors ONLY. Limit the storage and encourage the collect in- dump out driving philosophy. Once again, all skill based changes.

What do you mean triggers -- levers on the wheel for the driver to manually manage left front and right front regen, akin to a motorcycle rider managing front and rear braking independently?

I take it the skill will also be for the driver to manage energy recovery optimally, so they have more energy available to redeploy in traction zones?

Triggers like on an xBox controller, built into the steering wheel.

Yes, they could use it for regen, but I would rather see it done as a "boost". IE: In a left hand turn, pulling the trigger on the right side of the steering wheel would slow down the left-rear wheel through the diff, and speed up the right front wheel through the electric hub motor. This would allow the drivers to take a dozen different lines through a corner, and allow more on track passing attempts. I think it could be a thing, as it would be 100% under the driver skill to control.

PS: I think it would solve the "track limits" issue as well.

A modern version of McLaren's infamous "fiddle brake" system. Which was banned, of course, for reasons that were political rather than legal.

[Zynerji]

What do you mean triggers -- levers on the wheel for the driver to manually manage left front and right front regen, akin to a motorcycle rider managing front and rear braking independently?

I take it the skill will also be for the driver to manage energy recovery optimally, so they have more energy available to redeploy in traction zones?

Triggers like on an xBox controller, built into the steering wheel.

Yes, they could use it for regen, but I would rather see it done as a "boost". IE: In a left hand turn, pulling the trigger on the right side of the steering wheel would slow down the left-rear wheel through the diff, and speed up the right front wheel through the electric hub motor. This would allow the drivers to take a dozen different lines through a corner, and allow more on track passing attempts. I think it could be a thing, as it would be 100% under the driver skill to control.

PS: I think it would solve the "track limits" issue as well.

A modern version of McLaren's infamous "fiddle brake" system. Which was banned, of course, for reasons that were political rather than legal.

Very similar, but with boosting the front wheel speed, it should allow for some CRAZY apex lines around a corner. Especially the wide hairpins like Canada and Spa...

[Andres125sx]

F1 cars go on rails, Id go for the opposite, banning wheel adjustments (at least some of them) so cars are more difficult to drive and driver role is more relevant

[JordanMugen]

Except F1 has never had any connection to road cars. It trying to has only left it confused, overly complicated, and left us with the bloated mess we have now.

I think Grand Prix cars should be lovely simple V12 ICEs -- combustion motor in the middle, drive to the rear -- simple and elegant (albeit polluting). But it is what it is, what can you do?

I took this photo at a historic meeting -- the 3.0 V12 is simple and elegant, less is more (ok, not the fuel consumption which is very high), but alas it is not to be, the regulators have no interest in drafting such regulations, whatever their reasons:


Although, Ferrari's modern power unit is much more elegant compared to some (cough, Alpine-Renault). The air-to-water intercooler seems to allow for a more elegant layout.
https://motorsport-magazine.s3.eu-west- ... engine.jpg

[FW17]

Reasons some manufacturers pulled out of FE as per GP247


______________________

Indeed, the development of the Gen 3 regulations was supposed to be concluded in consultation with the organisations that had formally registered with the FIA as an homologated Formula E manufacturer, but that did not seem to have happened.

Through their investments in being manufacturers in Formula E and using it as a live R&D laboratory for their EV technologies the manufacturers wanted certain degrees of freedom that allowed them to demonstrate technologies directly aligned to their road going EV strategies, but many of these that were anticipated, such as electric active suspension, four wheel drive and regen, non-mechanical braking, and software controlled moveable aerodynamic devices were prohibited in the resulting regulations.

[Rodak]

This would allow the drivers to take a dozen different lines through a corner....

Ever driven a race car? There's (usually) only one quick way through a corner which is why you see all the cars taking the same line. The apex is critical; too early or too late and you either have to keep turning the car or just back out to make the corner. Having all the wheels driven independently. which is what you are suggesting, won't open up more fast lines through the corner. Corner exit is critical to being able to set the car in the right place for the next corner; apex too early and you'll find yourself pushed all the way to the outside when you might really like to be on the other side of the track setting up for the next corner..... Rinse and repeat.

[Just_a_fan]

This would allow the drivers to take a dozen different lines through a corner....

Ever driven a race car? There's (usually) only one quick way through a corner which is why you see all the cars taking the same line. The apex is critical; too early or too late and you either have to keep turning the car or just back out to make the corner. Having all the wheels driven independently. which is what you are suggesting, won't open up more fast lines through the corner. Corner exit is critical to being able to set the car in the right place for the next corner; apex too early and you'll find yourself pushed all the way to the outside when you might really like to be on the other side of the track setting up for the next corner..... Rinse and repeat.

For a normal racing car with traditional drive to the rear wheels, indeed. But if one has each wheel driven independently, it is possible to speed up and slow down wheels increase turn in e.g. increase the speed of the outside wheels, slow down the inside wheels, so one could take a later apex line or an earlier apex line and still make a similar position at the exit of the corner. Whether that would be quicker than the traditional line would be interesting to see.

[Zynerji]

F1 cars go on rails, Id go for the opposite, banning wheel adjustments (at least some of them) so cars are more difficult to drive and driver role is more relevant

Putting independent wheel control directly under the drivers control isn't more difficult and "driver relevant"?