2026 active aero discussions

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Mogster
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Re: 2026 active aero discussions

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101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:05 pm
A.J.O wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:24 pm
With the TD set to be issued to address porpoising, why not look into allowing active aero early?
I would think that allowing the rear spoiler and or beam wing to be used as trim tabs in lieu of DRS could be a pretty cool thing. IMO Much better then active suspension.
Aircraft/boats use theses devices to help hold the desired AOA of the vessel
As interesting as it is, then you need to talk cost cap/wake profiles etc. The whole point of these regs was to allow for better and closer racing. Personally I’d far rather seeing refuelling come back! Especially something with serious green credentials (but this is outside the scope of this discussion)

Fan of active aero not so much active suspension. Cars become devoid of character
As a reduction to 75kgs of fuel is (allegedly) being pushed by VAG, refuelling for 2026 would seem to be of even less benefit than currently.

I suppose a smaller fuel tank could help with a bit of weight and wheelbase reduction though.

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MIKEY_!
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Re: 2026 active aero discussions

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Active aero makes sense for drag reduction. Far bigger drag reductions can come from improving airflow around the tires, but passive aero will work just as well for that and be cheaper. For active aero we're really talking about the rear wing and maybe the front wing, not so much the floor as the floor is so efficient.

For 2026 I think it's best to keep it simple (as simple as active aero can be anyway) by making the whole rear wing moveable, like a big DRS flap. If the power unit regulations allow for push-to-pass, then drivers could be allowed to open the rear wing whenever they like.

If making the whole rear wing moveable is too risky or mechanically complex (the forces involved will be pretty big I imagine) F1 could consider a rear wing F-duct instead... maybe operated via a button on the steering wheel rather than the drivers' knees/hands/elbows this time though!

Messing around with the rear wing will change the wake, mainly by disrupting the up-wash and endplate vortices, but that might not be a bad thing as this may mean more dirty air at surface level and therefore better slip streaming.

The front wing is more challenging. It'd be nice to be able to cut some drag and balance the car with an adjustable (or F-ducted) front wing, but the drag reduction will be less and it'll presumably alter the flow to the floor substantially. This could have unintended aero consequences and will certainly mean extra CFD/wing tunnel runs and extra cost. So it might be best to leave the front wing alone.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2026 active aero discussions

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They're trying to copy Cyberformula GPX, what's next an ASURADA driving computer helping switch between track and circuit mode?
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NL_Fer
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Re: 2026 active aero discussions

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Keep it simple stupid, allow the DRS free for any driver to use on the straights. Built the cars in such a way, they don’t need and overtaking aid anymore.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2026 active aero discussions

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NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:42 pm
Keep it simple stupid, allow the DRS free for any driver to use on the straights. Built the cars in such a way, they don’t need and overtaking aid anymore.
The problem is that the balance changes too much with rear DRS making it dangerous for the driver to have free control of it. It would have to work over both axles to maintain car balance. Do you think that it's safe for a driver to use rear wing DRS to pass on the outside of Parabolica, or Stowe or 130R?
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2026 active aero discussions

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:56 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:42 pm
Keep it simple stupid, allow the DRS free for any driver to use on the straights. Built the cars in such a way, they don’t need and overtaking aid anymore.
The problem is that the balance changes too much with rear DRS making it dangerous for the driver to have free control of it. It would have to work over both axles to maintain car balance. Do you think that it's safe for a driver to use rear wing DRS to pass on the outside of Parabolica, or Stowe or 130R?
Wouldn't that be a case of the driver making the choice based on his particular car and what he thinks he can deal with? A.k.a. driver skill.
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godlameroso
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Re: 2026 active aero discussions

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 12:03 am
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:56 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:42 pm
Keep it simple stupid, allow the DRS free for any driver to use on the straights. Built the cars in such a way, they don’t need and overtaking aid anymore.
The problem is that the balance changes too much with rear DRS making it dangerous for the driver to have free control of it. It would have to work over both axles to maintain car balance. Do you think that it's safe for a driver to use rear wing DRS to pass on the outside of Parabolica, or Stowe or 130R?
Wouldn't that be a case of the driver making the choice based on his particular car and what he thinks he can deal with? A.k.a. driver skill.
Sure, just that it wouldn't make sense to only have rear DRS, the driver would have to have control over both axles. But why stop there, why not allow the driver to alter ride height as well? It can start to get very complex and avionics would be the next logical step to allow the driver that kind of control.
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Zynerji
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Re: 2026 active aero discussions

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Shouldn't we look at the fluttering DRS wings as a warning against active aero? A failure on larger influencing items could be catastrophic...

J.A.W.
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Re: 2026 active aero discussions

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:23 am
Shouldn't we look at the fluttering DRS wings as a warning against active aero? A failure on larger influencing items could be catastrophic...
Active aero on self-correcting devices such as supersonic 'Sidewinder' air-to-air missiles has been
operating effectively for well over 1/2 a century now - its not a problematic design-tech issue...
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

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(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

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Stu
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Re: 2026 active aero discussions

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:56 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:42 pm
Keep it simple stupid, allow the DRS free for any driver to use on the straights. Built the cars in such a way, they don’t need and overtaking aid anymore.
The problem is that the balance changes too much with rear DRS making it dangerous for the driver to have free control of it. It would have to work over both axles to maintain car balance. Do you think that it's safe for a driver to use rear wing DRS to pass on the outside of Parabolica, or Stowe or 130R?
Please read before quoting, none of the locations in italics reflect the statement in bold.

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mzso
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Re: 2026 active aero discussions

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NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:42 pm
Keep it simple stupid, allow the DRS free for any driver to use on the straights. Built the cars in such a way, they don’t need *an* overtaking aid anymore.
No chance of happening...

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Zynerji
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Re: 2026 active aero discussions

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J.A.W. wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:37 am
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:23 am
Shouldn't we look at the fluttering DRS wings as a warning against active aero? A failure on larger influencing items could be catastrophic...
Active aero on self-correcting devices such as supersonic 'Sidewinder' air-to-air missiles has been
operating effectively for well over 1/2 a century now - its not a problematic design-tech issue...
Yet, 12 years in, we've seen lots of DRS failures...

J.A.W.
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Re: 2026 active aero discussions

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:22 pm
J.A.W. wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:37 am
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:23 am
Shouldn't we look at the fluttering DRS wings as a warning against active aero? A failure on larger influencing items could be catastrophic...
Active aero on self-correcting devices such as supersonic 'Sidewinder' air-to-air missiles has been
operating effectively for well over 1/2 a century now - its not a problematic design-tech issue...
Yet, 12 years in, we've seen lots of DRS failures...
DRS is pretty much 'a fail' in A-E terms anyhow, right? Not catastrophic/fatal like `60's aero though..

(Funny that the 'Dr's chase car' nearly had a roll-over moment too, recently.)
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2026 active aero discussions

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:22 pm
J.A.W. wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:37 am
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:23 am
Shouldn't we look at the fluttering DRS wings as a warning against active aero? A failure on larger influencing items could be catastrophic...
Active aero on self-correcting devices such as supersonic 'Sidewinder' air-to-air missiles has been
operating effectively for well over 1/2 a century now - its not a problematic design-tech issue...
Yet, 12 years in, we've seen lots of DRS failures...
Presumably a consequence of weight saving in the hinges. We used to have rear wing failures back in the day, too, as the teams strove to save weight and also play clever things with shedding drag by flexing the wing rearwards at speed.

I think any active aero systems would have to be basically spec systems/parts/designs, at least in terms of things like the hinges to prevent failure through weight saving.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Stu
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Re: 2026 active aero discussions

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They used to run cables from the end plates to the bell-housing/engine to stop them deforming.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.