2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

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Juzh
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Re: 2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

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Artur Craft wrote:
11 Oct 2021, 17:39
Juzh wrote:
10 Oct 2021, 19:04
2009/2010 cars are not going faster than 2021, you are 10 kmh off on the scale on that silly speedo that they used back then. As you can see in final clip from 2011 (pole lap), Vettel enters T8 with DRS and KERS help at 275 kmh, then bleeds off 10 kmh mid corner, hovers at 265 and then starts to regain speed again.
Compare to that to Leclerc's Q3 lap this year. Entry speed 278 kmh, minimum speed 271. Obviously he could go faster if he had more power, but I suspect they dont use battery trough T8 to preserve it for back straight.

Early RB6 before F-duct was aerodynamic brick and I doubt they had more than 270 kmh entry speed, and probably no more than 265 mid corner. Same with sauber probably.
I reckon the speedometers are displaying correct speeds, just not digital numbers as nowadays. But, if the 275km/h is flashing on, then I do believe the car achieved 275km/h. No reason for the speedometer, in 2009/10 to be inacurate.

In 2011, Vettel is probably reaching with lower speed because he must have exited T7 with much lower speed than the 2009/10 cars. IIRC, they no longer had KERS in 2011 and that was a huge acceleration boost for Massa, on 2009, to speed up faster out of the lower speed corners. And the RB6 had so much downforce(DDD and EBD), for it´s weight, that it could exit T7 with much higher speeds than the RB7, which was also very draggy(not only the RB6).

I read Newey saying the RB6 was the fastest car F1 ever had because, according to him, they could reach sustained 5.5G(not instant peaks when a drivers rides a little bump along the cornering) through T8. I saw many onboard this past weekend with cars going flatout on T8 but reaching only a peak of 5G(even that was rather rare) and sustained Gs only around 4.something

So, in the end, I´ll believe the speedometers and Newey.

PS: Your arguments are reasonable and might portray the true picture but I have to give some credit to these other factors because I remember how the early Mercedeses, Ferraris and Red Bulls, of this current generation, struggled against the RB6 on Campsa and Copse, before the new much "grippier tarmacs" and I don´t buy the possible claims that the 2020/21 cars got so much more downforce than on 2017/2018, given the same regulations, or even worse, for this year(Hamilton was already going almost flat on Pouhoun on 2017.... but aero setups make a huge difference, particularly on Monza and Spa)
2011 cars had kers, come on man, it's even seen at the end of the video you yourself posted :!: It's so obvious.
2010 cars didn't have it as per agreement between teams, even though they retained 620 kg weight to supposedly compensate for it.
Some cars had it in 2009. Ferrari, mclaren, bmw on some races. Red bull, Brawn didn't.

RB6 wasn't at all that much faster in turkey's turns than RB7, if at all (got beat by 1.3s in quali). Certainly not enough to make it faster up the hill to T8 against RB7 with kers + DRS, just no way that's happening.

I'm not entirely sure that scale is showing 275 kmh rather than 270 back in 2009. If the scale goes up in 15 kmh increments that would mean RB5 is 8 km/h faster on T8 exit than RB7 with DRS - not happening.

Image

I think Newey said that thing about RB6 being most DF loaded car back in 2015 when cars were slow AF. RB6 has since been far surpassed in terms of downforce generation, like it's not even close, I'd say even 2021 Haas has more outright DF than RB6.

2017 pouhon was a pretty big exception in terms of achieved speeds (even though hamilton was flat there in 2018). 2018 cars already had miles more speed than 2017 cars trough I would say every single corner and laptimes fell as well. Subsequent 2019 and 2020 cars were on a completely different level then.
If you were to compare 2017 vs 2019 S section in suzuka where more DF really comes into its own it's like a night and day difference. 2019 car is around 15-20 kmh faster in every turn.

aral
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Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: 2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

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Edax wrote:
11 Oct 2021, 19:30
214270 wrote:
11 Oct 2021, 10:04
Edax wrote:
11 Oct 2021, 00:07
I don’t know. Looking at his rears I have a hard time seeing them take another 10 laps. In some places you could see the bonding layer coming trough. Yes Ocon made it, but he spend most of the time nursing his tires and not trashing them out in front. I think the team might have saved hamilton another China.

The bigger mistake was perhaps not taking him in earlier, so he could work through the graining to make real use of the tires.
Rears? Front-R was the only tyre in real danger. OCO made it the entire race distance and I believe that included a front lockup along the way. HAMs rears weren’t the issue; yes a groove had developed on the Front-R and obviously all 4 were well worn, but for 8 laps the pace might not’ve been great but it was manageable. There’s a bit too much arse-covering going on - Pirelli & Merc which makes me doubt the ‘apparent danger’ narrative being told.
I only got a good view on the rears during Hamilton’s pitstop, but these where bad enough. Would love to see the fronts though.

Anyway looking by these pictures from Ocon it doesn’t seem to me that Pirelli was overreacting. Even if you discount the lockup there is nothing left.

Www.f1i.com/news/421067-ocon-well-hang- ... y.html/amp
If you had the opportunity to see the SKY pit walk after the race, at one point there was a shot of the tyres being washed down before removal. I do not know whose tyres they were, but the mass of blisters on the treadless part was amazing. So yes, there was a good chance of a tyre disintegrating

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

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Albert Fabrega posted a slightly blurry picture of Ocon's FL tyre
Image, don't know if this was posted here already, did not see it at a quick glance.

It would appear that it was already down to the canvas, Ocon himself said that he felt like he was one lap away from a tyre failure.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

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Last year's was down to the canvas as well.
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Artur Craft
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Re: 2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

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Juzh wrote:
11 Oct 2021, 19:50

RB6 wasn't at all that much faster in turkey's turns than RB7, if at all (got beat by 1.3s in quali). Certainly not enough to make it faster up the hill to T8 against RB7 with kers + DRS, just no way that's happening.

I think Newey said that thing about RB6 being most DF loaded car back in 2015 when cars were slow AF. RB6 has since been far surpassed in terms of downforce generation, like it's not even close, I'd say even 2021 Haas has more outright DF than RB6.

2017 pouhon was a pretty big exception in terms of achieved speeds (even though hamilton was flat there in 2018). 2018 cars already had miles more speed than 2017 cars trough I would say every single corner and laptimes fell as well. Subsequent 2019 and 2020 cars were on a completely different level then.
If you were to compare 2017 vs 2019 S section in suzuka where more DF really comes into its own it's like a night and day difference. 2019 car is around 15-20 kmh faster in every turn.
Yeah, I was very stupid to not realize the KERS on the 2011 graphic. Sorry, my bad #-o

Anyway, the RB6 was very significanlty faster than the RB7, on the high speed corners. Compare the 2010 and 2011 Silverstone poles and check Copse. RB6 was going easily flatout at over 280km/h while, on 2011, it had a big lift and speeds around 260 km/h. I guess the same can be seen on Campsa but I don´t remember the 2011 Barcelona pole video.

The quote about Newey was old indeed but the most important bit is the amount of cornering Gs. Haas, very likely, has quite more downforce today than the RB6 had, however, the RB6 was like 620-630kg while today they weight around 750kg. Another huge factor affecting cornering is the tyres and despite the Pirellis being wider, I would bet the Bridgestones still performed better, but that´s just a big speculation, on my side. What is not speculation is that the RB was described by Newey to be the only F1 car, until then, capable to cornering with sustained 5.5Gs and even today they don´t reach that value, as peak cornering acceleration, that often.

About Suzuka, if Vettel was like 20km/h faster on 2019, than on 2017, why are the laptimes not too apart from each other (3 tenths only between the two poles)? I ask because FOM didn´t put telemtry on the official video(Vettel)

foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

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Merc did a mistake... They should have just pitted after 1st redbull did. Easy podium was missed for Ham.

However, going forward I am more confident after this race that they have the faster car/driver to win majority of the remaining races. I only see Mexico as redbull favored.

When season is done, we will see Ham championship with +30 points.

Manoah2u
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Re: 2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

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foxmulder_ms wrote:
12 Oct 2021, 03:01
Merc did a mistake... They should have just pitted after 1st redbull did. Easy podium was missed for Ham.

However, going forward I am more confident after this race that they have the faster car/driver to win majority of the remaining races. I only see Mexico as redbull favored.

When season is done, we will see Ham championship with +30 points.
lol, the only way it get to +30 point is if Max gets a DNF twice.

should no driver have DNF, it's going to be marginal with a maximum points difference of 10.
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Hammerfist
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Re: 2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

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Edax wrote:
10 Oct 2021, 23:11
Tizz wrote:
10 Oct 2021, 20:56
ringo wrote:
10 Oct 2021, 20:11
it is not looking bad for Mercedes. Now they have a new engine, they can put reliability concerns behind them.
I'm not so sure that they had time to fix the defect actually causing the problem. In that case they might end up needing another engine like Bottas 2 races in a row.
It wouldn’t surprise me. I have the suspicion since Silverstone that Merc is trading in longevity for power. They suddenly gained a lot of speed even in a high downforce config.

For the top teams an engine change isn’t such a big penalty. Losing a few points in one race, if that can win you a couple of others is not a bad deal. If they can prevent in race breakdowns and mishaps from starting midfield it might actually win them the championship.

A few weeks ago there was a story going around that Merc were contemplating running the engines in a higher mode, whether it is by raising the turbo boost levels or increasing the cam timing, messing with fuel maps etc, but that story kind of died. But since then Horner has started crying about Mercedes's straight line speed so may be that story has come into fruition and it is explaining why Merc have to use extra power units, but also why they seem to have a boost in performance. I wonder if Honda can do the same?

Mr.S
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Joined: 09 Apr 2011, 18:21

Re: 2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

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foxmulder_ms wrote:
12 Oct 2021, 03:01
Merc did a mistake... They should have just pitted after 1st redbull did. Easy podium was missed for Ham.

However, going forward I am more confident after this race that they have the faster car/driver to win majority of the remaining races. I only see Mexico as redbull favored.

When season is done, we will see Ham championship with +30 points.
I agree totally. Mercedes will win atleast 5 of the 7 races. Max will come 2, 3 , 4 etc (with Ferrari & Mclaren chipping in here & there) & Bottas will finish ahead in quite a few races. In those 5 races, LH will make up 50 points + fastest laps. Even if Max wins Brazil, LH can look @ P2 given Perez is a poor qualifier to stop him. Even if Max wins Mexico & Lewis comes P5 behind for RB & Ferrari (say), he will be 25-30 points.

Maybe it will not +30, maybe +20 or +25, but it should be a comfortable victory given the speed of the car. The only thing which can turn it around if Lewis has DNF or if RB finds 2 tenths atleast from upgrades & set-ups changes. In either of these cases, it will go down to the wire - Like 3-5 points here & there - Without it, Mercedes barring RB improvement & reliability issues, should pull through. Max being P2 in Silverstone & possibly Hungary could have given him around 35 additional points. Those 2 DNFs possibly cost him the championship.

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ringo
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Re: 2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

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You are just saying this so that the obvious and inevitable Max Championship looks even more miraculous than it really is. :roll:
For Sure!!

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nzjrs
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Re: 2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

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ringo wrote:
12 Oct 2021, 09:27
You are just saying this so that the obvious and inevitable Max Championship looks even more miraculous than it really is. :roll:
It takes two childishly opposed parties to play "im the underdog" discourse.

Mr.S
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Re: 2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

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ringo wrote:
12 Oct 2021, 09:27
You are just saying this so that the obvious and inevitable Max Championship looks even more miraculous than it really is. :roll:
No1 cares about miraculous or underdog championship. A Championship is a championship. Besides Max has done enough to comfortably out-drive Lewis & prove himself as deserving.

Now it only matters who wins & not who is the under-dog - History will remember Jack Villenueve as a champion too !

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
11 Oct 2021, 19:00
I felt the race could have been better if they had street sweeper trucks cleaning the track. It wasn't really raining and the water was just standing there.
Define better please :P

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

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Andres125sx wrote:
12 Oct 2021, 11:44
PlatinumZealot wrote:
11 Oct 2021, 19:00
I felt the race could have been better if they had street sweeper trucks cleaning the track. It wasn't really raining and the water was just standing there.
Define better please :P
It was a bit of a procession but for Carlos and Lewis/ Perez. There was no urgency to it. Cars seemed mired in place because of the greasyness.

Also never got to see the true pace of Ferrari, and besides that we still didn't get to see a dry Turkey race with these wide body cars! Oh well.
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Andres125sx
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Re: 2021 Turkish Grand Prix - Istanbul Park, Oct 08 - 10

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Agree with that, but I don´t think a dry track would have improved anything sincerely.

Most probably it would have been similar, but without the uncertainity factor of tires, with some switching for another set of inters soon, some other later, and even some doing the whole race with same tires while some didn´t even know if doing a pitstop or not

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