2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

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f1jcw
f1jcw
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Re: 2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

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2) Red Bull "win" the investigation that follows, because they successfully argue Verstappen simply tried to defend position by braking later than all previous instances that weekend, on an unfamiliar line into the corner, and his car control on that one off instance was the best he could do under the circumstances. The lack of gravel on the outside minimised risk and the fact is that the status quo was maintained only temporarily, and given that Hamilton passed him in the end, this all suggests that the equitable thing to do here is nothing, since Verstappen otherwise lacks the opportunity to respond to any penalty in terms of racing on track for the previous event. However I would expect the stewards to nonetheless clarify that they are not setting precedent by taking no action despite the investigation and they will say that future instances where this type of thing happens (irrespective of the competitors involved) will be treated by... [insert preferred penalty / telling off].
Since when is lacks the opportunity to respond to any penalty a consideration?

If I remember rightly, people are most upset that Lewis was able to fight back from his 10 second penality in Silverstone.

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nevill3
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Re: 2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

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Were Mercedes using their "trick" rear suspension here. I haven't seen or read any mention of it this weekend. They were reportedly using a Monaco rear wing setup but no discussions regarding stalling the diffuser?
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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

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f1jcw wrote:
18 Nov 2021, 21:04
2) Red Bull "win" the investigation that follows, because they successfully argue Verstappen simply tried to defend position by braking later than all previous instances that weekend, on an unfamiliar line into the corner, and his car control on that one off instance was the best he could do under the circumstances. The lack of gravel on the outside minimised risk and the fact is that the status quo was maintained only temporarily, and given that Hamilton passed him in the end, this all suggests that the equitable thing to do here is nothing, since Verstappen otherwise lacks the opportunity to respond to any penalty in terms of racing on track for the previous event. However I would expect the stewards to nonetheless clarify that they are not setting precedent by taking no action despite the investigation and they will say that future instances where this type of thing happens (irrespective of the competitors involved) will be treated by... [insert preferred penalty / telling off].
Since when is lacks the opportunity to respond to any penalty a consideration?

If I remember rightly, people are most upset that Lewis was able to fight back from his 10 second penality in Silverstone.
It's a bit of a problem with any time penalty you might care to dole out to Hamilton or Verstappen. They are too fast nine times out of ten for it to actually mean anything. Just the same as it or a grid drop means absolutely nothing for either of the Haas drivers. It's a far bigger punishment for a midfield car which could drop 3-4 places.

But the rules have to be the same for everyone, so it's very tricky.

Mchamilton
Mchamilton
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Re: 2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

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nevill3 wrote:
18 Nov 2021, 22:20
Were Mercedes using their "trick" rear suspension here. I haven't seen or read any mention of it this weekend. They were reportedly using a Monaco rear wing setup but no discussions regarding stalling the diffuser?
Yes they were, every team runs their version of it every weekend

the poster below
the poster below
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Re: 2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

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f1jcw wrote:
18 Nov 2021, 21:04
2) Red Bull "win" the investigation that follows, because they successfully argue Verstappen simply tried to defend position by braking later than all previous instances that weekend, on an unfamiliar line into the corner, and his car control on that one off instance was the best he could do under the circumstances. The lack of gravel on the outside minimised risk and the fact is that the status quo was maintained only temporarily, and given that Hamilton passed him in the end, this all suggests that the equitable thing to do here is nothing, since Verstappen otherwise lacks the opportunity to respond to any penalty in terms of racing on track for the previous event. However I would expect the stewards to nonetheless clarify that they are not setting precedent by taking no action despite the investigation and they will say that future instances where this type of thing happens (irrespective of the competitors involved) will be treated by... [insert preferred penalty / telling off].
Since when is lacks the opportunity to respond to any penalty a consideration?

If I remember rightly, people are most upset that Lewis was able to fight back from his 10 second penality in Silverstone.
Oh I don't know that it is a valid consideration, but I can see red bull arguing it, and I can see the stewards using it as a justification in their verdict, whatever that ends up being.

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adrianjordan
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Re: 2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

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How many penalty points does Max have?

Perhaps the FIA awards him a reprimand and points on his licence such that he'd be close to, but not actually yet triggering, a race ban.

As such they'd be seen to do something, without it being that harsh.
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ringo
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Re: 2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

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It needs to be harsh IMO.
He will simply do it again. I do not think he cares about license points. He cares about points points.
10 place grid drop for the next race is about right.
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holeindalip
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Re: 2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

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adrianjordan wrote:
19 Nov 2021, 02:10
How many penalty points does Max have?

Perhaps the FIA awards him a reprimand and points on his licence such that he'd be close to, but not actually yet triggering, a race ban.

As such they'd be seen to do something, without it being that harsh.
Honestly, that’s what needs to happen. They wouldn’t be interfering with the championship but anymore driving like that and a race ban. I remember redbull calling for a race ban after ss for which it was arguably not Hamilton’s fault depending on which side of fence you sit on. Kinda karma coming back to bite them…

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dans79
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Re: 2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

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Max should be careful, the last time he made comments like this he earned himself a grid drop!

https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/18/ham ... erstappen/
“It’s hard racing,” he added. “We are fighting for a championship. We are not here to be in a kindergarten.”
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Roo
Roo
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Re: 2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

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nimoraca wrote:
18 Nov 2021, 18:21
Hamilton is avoiding giving any opinion on the incident and keeps talking how there needs to be respect on and off track. If he is not pressing for this why is the team doing it? Seems kind of strange.
He probably understands that Max is ready to crash out if given opportunity so he needs to put himself in a situation where there is no such opportunity.
Lewis is being smart about this. He cannot say he'll do it because he knows he empowers max to try and take him out, he cannot say it's not right when people will point to an element of his driving and call him a hypocrite.

Let the bosses fight it out.When the result comes out he can say i already moved on. That will keep him calm and focused

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adrianjordan
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Re: 2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

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Roo wrote:
19 Nov 2021, 10:48
nimoraca wrote:
18 Nov 2021, 18:21
Hamilton is avoiding giving any opinion on the incident and keeps talking how there needs to be respect on and off track. If he is not pressing for this why is the team doing it? Seems kind of strange.
He probably understands that Max is ready to crash out if given opportunity so he needs to put himself in a situation where there is no such opportunity.
Lewis is being smart about this. He cannot say he'll do it because he knows he empowers max to try and take him out, he cannot say it's not right when people will point to an element of his driving and call him a hypocrite.

Let the bosses fight it out.When the result comes out he can say i already moved on. That will keep him calm and focused
There's also an element of sports psychology on top of what you say. It is something out of Lewis' control and so he is focused on the weekend ahead, which is in his control.
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bonjon1979
bonjon1979
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Re: 2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

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I would imagine the FIA are trying to write the release to cover everything, from right to review to any further sanctions etc. Whatever happens masi’s credibility is shot. Forgetting my own particular view that max did something that warrants a punishment. Neither team is going to be happy with the outcome and it’ll no doubt lead to more rancour. Have to say that in the context of red bulls silverstone antics and the pressure they seem to be exerting regarding the rear wings you can’t really blame merc for coming out fighting as well.

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

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bonjon1979 wrote:
19 Nov 2021, 11:56
I would imagine the FIA are trying to write the release to cover everything, from right to review to any further sanctions etc. Whatever happens masi’s credibility is shot. Forgetting my own particular view that max did something that warrants a punishment. Neither team is going to be happy with the outcome and it’ll no doubt lead to more rancour. Have to say that in the context of red bulls silverstone antics and the pressure they seem to be exerting regarding the rear wings you can’t really blame merc for coming out fighting as well.
You could be right here. They've opened a huge can of worms because the stewards bottled out in Brazil. Now you have numerous current drivers questioning how racing and overtaking is supposed to work if that's not a penalty, and saying they'll just do the same thing to defend a position then. It could really quickly spiral out of control. And it'll be completely unfair on the next driver who does it and then gets penalised. They'll follow up the matter with the footage and telemetry of this incident to prove they shouldn't be punished.

bonjon1979
bonjon1979
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Re: 2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

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El Scorchio wrote:
19 Nov 2021, 12:20
bonjon1979 wrote:
19 Nov 2021, 11:56
I would imagine the FIA are trying to write the release to cover everything, from right to review to any further sanctions etc. Whatever happens masi’s credibility is shot. Forgetting my own particular view that max did something that warrants a punishment. Neither team is going to be happy with the outcome and it’ll no doubt lead to more rancour. Have to say that in the context of red bulls silverstone antics and the pressure they seem to be exerting regarding the rear wings you can’t really blame merc for coming out fighting as well.
You could be right here. They've opened a huge can of worms because the stewards bottled out in Brazil. Now you have numerous current drivers questioning how racing and overtaking is supposed to work if that's not a penalty, and saying they'll just do the same thing to defend a position then. It could really quickly spiral out of control. And it'll be completely unfair on the next driver who does it and then gets penalised. They'll follow up the matter with the footage and telemetry of this incident to prove they shouldn't be punished.
Exactly. This has been brewing for some time, maybe more noise needed to be made after Barcelona and imola when Hamilton needed to take avoiding action when max thundered up the inside. As Horner said himself Lewis would’ve ended up in the catch fence if he had tried to take the corner. This moment was just an extension of those previous moments.

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siskue2005
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Re: 2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

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So right to review denied, they feel the new video is no use to them.

Right let's crack on and see more similar moves from ferrari and Co