2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Tizz wrote:
05 Jan 2022, 19:43
dans79 wrote:
03 Jan 2022, 19:06
pantherxxx wrote:
03 Jan 2022, 18:58
They should have let all lapped cars to overtake at the end of the 56. lap, when the track was already clear. Then safety car out at the 57. lap and 58. lap is racing. The outcome would have been Verstappen winning anyways.

https://i.imgur.com/81Ws23D.jpg
Generally speaking they don't consider the track clear until marshals are at least behind some concrete/catch fencing. As your picture shows marshals are right behind the armco, and also in the firing line for any potential accident, as the cement dust shows.
I find it hard to believe that they are supposed to be behind the at least 3m high fence behind them. They will never have the chance to do their job there. Besides that, the critical place is where the green protection is installed in front of the armco.
Well that 3m fence will protect them from pretty much anything that happens on track.
Felipe Baby!

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Tizz wrote:
05 Jan 2022, 19:43
dans79 wrote:
03 Jan 2022, 19:06
pantherxxx wrote:
03 Jan 2022, 18:58
They should have let all lapped cars to overtake at the end of the 56. lap, when the track was already clear. Then safety car out at the 57. lap and 58. lap is racing. The outcome would have been Verstappen winning anyways.

https://i.imgur.com/81Ws23D.jpg
Generally speaking they don't consider the track clear until marshals are at least behind some concrete/catch fencing. As your picture shows marshals are right behind the armco, and also in the firing line for any potential accident, as the cement dust shows.
I find it hard to believe that they are supposed to be behind the at least 3m high fence behind them. They will never have the chance to do their job there. Besides that, the critical place is where the green protection is installed in front of the armco.
The marshals wouldn't be behind that catch fence they would be down by the telescopic forklift in the background and behind that fencing.
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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Everything has been said here already. I was banned for a month for using laughing emojis too much when criticising others points of view, behind some extreme prejudice against me as a user 😑

So, I was denied the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix discussion for what wasn’t a proportionate ban length.

I will make my position clear here; I would’ve been delighted for Hamilton to win the 8th but still happy for verstappen on a personal level if he had won as well. All I wanted was a result with the same kind of integrity we expect from any sport. If RB had outfoxed MCS on strategy, or Max or Lewis beat eachother in a fair contest of driving I would’ve been satisfied to say this is arguably the greatest F1 season we have had. (I would argue other seasons had drivers that were more willing to race wheel to wheel)

My problem with what happened is with Massi more than the rules.

He failed to follow any consistent procedure. At first it appeared to be he was going to afford the race to finish under safety car. He had informed the teams and drivers cars will not unlap themselves.

The teams made their strategy calls in this scenario as it presented itself.

Massi had previously followed the rules by the book a year ago on Germany, going as far as saying that is the rules [he must follow]

It has since come out that teams had discussed the preference to finish races by racing where possible. This is also fair enough.

The problem I have in this Abu Dhabi situation, is Massi changed his mind after strategy calls had been committed to. And he did so after Christian Horner demanded a lap of racing. It was evident from the dynamic of the conversation-what he did and didn’t say-that’s he was taken aback by the demand as if he was subordinate and Ill prepared for a reason, which is incorrect. He should know first and foremost before anyone, what he has to do and what he can and can’t do. Yet he responded as if he was in need of presenting an excuse for not having done something differently. But if he had the intention to do what he did in the first place, and not change his mind, he would have informed teams and drivers to unlap very early on, with intent to restart the race behind the safety car. Therefore not screwing any drivers and teams strategy.

Putting aside the aspect of him changing his mind at the behest of one team principal, the second issue is how he tried to fix what he may have thought was a mistake on his part.

He instructed selectively, cars to unlap themselves. IMO this ruined the race and made it very cheap and unworthy.

The leading car had to overtake backmarkers which had cost him time. Verstappen on the other hand, was given all the advantages you could ever have to basically rig a different result; fresh tyres, backmarkers removed, and starting on the gearbox of the lead car - so all advantage that was earned and won by the lead car had simply vanished by the hand of the race director through misinforming teams what will happen, and making decisions which punished them for following his original intent. He had to go so far to undo his original direction of managing the Latifi crash that he forced himself to actually break an obvious safety car procedure rule with the safety car coming in on the next lap.

He should have restarted the race with max having to overtake 1 backmarker between himself and Hamilton. That in my view, would’ve been a balanced situation. I’m sure he cannot have done that for some reason they can quote. But since he did selectively choose only some cars, why not do this?

With 1 car between Hamilton and Verstappen. It would’ve given some deserved advantage to Hamilton who had to overtake backmarkers before the safety car, and he had the old tyres. Max could’ve made short work of the backmarker and hopefully still had a chance of catching Lewis so we had an open ending.

It’s just a shame how it worked out for the sporting spectacle and integrity of the sport.

In a perfect world, if we had to finish any laps after a safety car period, there would’ve been 3 laps left and about 2 - 3 backmarkers between them.

The RB is faster with lower fuel, fast and fresh C5s which it thrives on, and being right behind a car in front which was on 40 odd lap old hard tyres. So the lead was provided on a plate for verstappen through the hand of the race director’s incompetent management and control of the race.

Both would’ve been worthy champions, it’s just a shame neither of them, The genuine fans, got a worthy race finish with enough integrity that everyone deserved.

F1 really neeeds to get proactive about the rules. They’re too ambiguous, too many loop holes. They should treat the racing protocols and the racing itself, like technical regulations - ambiguities should be clarified promptly and rules should be rewritten accordingly.

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ispano6
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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The resumption of racing on the final lap was the right call. The cars in between the championship contenders being unlapped was also the right call. It should have happened much sooner.

The decision and ruling isn't Masi's alone, the stewards were involved in all decisions. The teams all agreed to try and end races in green flag conditions. The FIA stood by the decisions, they did not reinstate the previous lap because there were no valid grounds to.

Mercedes made the call to not pit, Max always was within Hamilton's pit window. Lewis and Bonnington both knew and assumed the back markers would be let through with Max immediately behind with fresh softs. This is part of F1 racing, this is what we've seen as a strategy in F1 all year with the car behind having an option to pit and the leader somewhat of a sitting duck. And to be honest, it's also luck and Karma coming back toward Max. Had Bottas not punted Norris into Max then Lewis most likely would have only 7 more points where as Max would have had 16 more. Then if Max finished 2nd in Abu Dhabi with fastest lap he would have still been champion. The championship was won over the season and Lewis was quite lucky to be In a position to be able to win it all. In the end, the championship was won on track under racing conditions. It wasn't because Horner made Masi make the decision, and let's not forget Toto made many efforts to tell Masi what to and what not to do.

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_cerber1
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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ispano6 wrote:
13 Jan 2022, 10:53
Mercedes made the call to not pit, Max always was within Hamilton's pit window. Lewis and Bonnington both knew and assumed the back markers would be let through with Max immediately behind with fresh softs. This is part of F1 racing, this is what we've seen as a strategy in F1 all year with the car behind having an option to pit and the leader somewhat of a sitting duck. And to be honest, it's also luck and Karma coming back toward Max. Had Bottas not punted Norris into Max then Lewis most likely would have only 7 more points where as Max would have had 16 more. Then if Max finished 2nd in Abu Dhabi with fastest lap he would have still been champion. The championship was won over the season and Lewis was quite lucky to be In a position to be able to win it all. In the end, the championship was won on track under racing conditions. It wasn't because Horner made Masi make the decision, and let's not forget Toto made many efforts to tell Masi what to and what not to do.
If you reason in such categories, then why do you do it selectively and don’t say that if it weren’t for the 2021 regulations, then Verstappen wouldn’t even have a chance to fight Hamilton? Everything else, after realizing this, is secondary.

Tiny73
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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ispano6 wrote:
13 Jan 2022, 10:53
The resumption of racing on the final lap was the right call. The cars in between the championship contenders being unlapped was also the right call. It should have happened much sooner.

The decision and ruling isn't Masi's alone, the stewards were involved in all decisions. The teams all agreed to try and end races in green flag conditions. The FIA stood by the decisions, they did not reinstate the previous lap because there were no valid grounds to.

Mercedes made the call to not pit, Max always was within Hamilton's pit window. Lewis and Bonnington both knew and assumed the back markers would be let through with Max immediately behind with fresh softs. This is part of F1 racing, this is what we've seen as a strategy in F1 all year with the car behind having an option to pit and the leader somewhat of a sitting duck. And to be honest, it's also luck and Karma coming back toward Max. Had Bottas not punted Norris into Max then Lewis most likely would have only 7 more points where as Max would have had 16 more. Then if Max finished 2nd in Abu Dhabi with fastest lap he would have still been champion. The championship was won over the season and Lewis was quite lucky to be In a position to be able to win it all. In the end, the championship was won on track under racing conditions. It wasn't because Horner made Masi make the decision, and let's not forget Toto made many efforts to tell Masi what to and what not to do.
A lot of “what if’s” in there but the reality is that they went into the last race tied on points and the previously applied safety car rules were selectively altered mid-race “for the show” and no strategy can factor this in. Hence any justification of this is flawed as the rules were not consistently applied during that final lap. The race should have finished under the safety car if Masi had followed his own precedent. But he didn’t. In addition he applied the “new” rules selectively to some of the field and not all of it (allowing some unlapped cars through but not all).

This arbitrary rule changing is the fundamental issue here and needs to be addressed to maintain any credibility. I guess from your avatar that you’re a Max fan. Imagine max had been in this position and how you’d feel if the rules had allowed Lewis a free pit stop, cleared the back markers between the two title protagonists and then started the race before the lapped backmarkers had got halfway round the track etc. you’d have questions wouldn’t you? That’s the fundamental issue here.

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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This is a strange sense of logic to apply though.

Luck is part of motorsports, everyone accepts that. Abu Dhabi was no such luck. F1 does not investigate luck.

We can play what if games all the time and make ‘should be’ champions many years. There shouldn’t have been a gravel trip on a pit lane entry in 2007, unnecessary element to punish a driver. Tyre shouldn’t have blown up in Turkey 2007, and Alonso shouldn’t have been taking that podium. gearbox glitching in Brazil shouldn’t have happened, but it did. Tyre getting punctured by two BMW’s in the European Grand Prix after making way from a grid penalty to the front in the first lap, but guess what? It happened. So, no dream rookie champion in 07. That’s motorsports. Champions aren’t made based on entitlement from the would’ve/should’ve’s / good luck-bad luck. The driver having the best season doesn’t always win. Luck is needed.

That’s something we have to accept as part of it. That’s why, when you have 30 points lead, it’s worth keeping them than gambling them, because you don’t know when you’ll really need them (engine failures, tyre failures, mechanical failures.. or some other drivers coming together and taking you out with them)

Max had points from Spa he shouldn’t have had, and a number of fortunate points from many nuanced variables where he should have otherwise taken a net loss in points but didn’t because engine penalties, weather, played a role in how a weekend goes for yourself and the rival. Unlucky in Baku but equally lucky to walk away with 0 net point loss too.

Not everything was decided by drivers in these results standings. Team plays a massive role. And we learned this year, FIA giving a driver plot armour makes a massive difference as well :lol:

one might think of laps led but they weren’t all led by Max’s doing, they were reflective of red bull strategy to be aggressive and go for track position when Mercedes was much more conservative with tyres and often found themselves pitting second and having to go for the lead in the final phase of races.

Tiny73
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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AeroDynamic wrote:
13 Jan 2022, 12:53
This is a strange sense of logic to apply though.

Luck is part of motorsports, everyone accepts that. Abu Dhabi was no such luck. F1 does not investigate luck.

We can play what if games all the time and make ‘should be’ champions many years. There shouldn’t have been a gravel trip on a pit lane entry in 2007, unnecessary element to punish a driver. Tyre shouldn’t have blown up in Turkey 2007, and Alonso shouldn’t have been taking that podium. gearbox glitching in Brazil shouldn’t have happened, but it did. Tyre getting punctured by two BMW’s in the European Grand Prix after making way from a grid penalty to the front in the first lap, but guess what? It happened. So, no dream rookie champion in 07. That’s motorsports. Champions aren’t made based on entitlement from the would’ve/should’ve’s / good luck-bad luck. The driver having the best season doesn’t always win. Luck is needed.

That’s something we have to accept as part of it. That’s why, when you have 30 points lead, it’s worth keeping them than gambling them, because you don’t know when you’ll really need them (engine failures, or some other drivers coming together and taking you out with them)

Max had points from Spa he shouldn’t have had, and a number of fortunate points from many nuanced variables where he should have otherwise taken a net loss in points but didn’t because engine penalties, weather, played a role in how a weekend goes for yourself and the rival. Unlucky in Baku but equally lucky to walk away with 0 net point loss too.

Not everything was decided by drivers in these results standings. Team plays a massive role. And we learned this year, FIA giving a driver plot armour makes a massive difference as well :lol:

one might think of laps led but they weren’t all led by Max’s doing, they were reflective of red bull strategy to be aggressive and go for track position when Mercedes was much more conservative with tyres and often found themselves pitting second and having to go for the lead in the final phase of races.
I wouldn’t disagree about luck being a part of motorsport, (I’m just reading lewis’ biography and he was desperately unlucky not to have won in 2007). However, rules and precedent around safety cars (that have been applied consistently previously) cannot be subject to, or described as luck, otherwise it’s not racing, it’s gambling. It’s especially galling since Masi himself tweeted after France 2020 (I think) that the rules allow for all or none of the lapped cars to unlap themselves, not some arbitrary number of his own making.

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Tiny73 wrote:
13 Jan 2022, 13:00
AeroDynamic wrote:
13 Jan 2022, 12:53
This is a strange sense of logic to apply though.

Luck is part of motorsports, everyone accepts that. Abu Dhabi was no such luck. F1 does not investigate luck.

We can play what if games all the time and make ‘should be’ champions many years. There shouldn’t have been a gravel trip on a pit lane entry in 2007, unnecessary element to punish a driver. Tyre shouldn’t have blown up in Turkey 2007, and Alonso shouldn’t have been taking that podium. gearbox glitching in Brazil shouldn’t have happened, but it did. Tyre getting punctured by two BMW’s in the European Grand Prix after making way from a grid penalty to the front in the first lap, but guess what? It happened. So, no dream rookie champion in 07. That’s motorsports. Champions aren’t made based on entitlement from the would’ve/should’ve’s / good luck-bad luck. The driver having the best season doesn’t always win. Luck is needed.

That’s something we have to accept as part of it. That’s why, when you have 30 points lead, it’s worth keeping them than gambling them, because you don’t know when you’ll really need them (engine failures, or some other drivers coming together and taking you out with them)

Max had points from Spa he shouldn’t have had, and a number of fortunate points from many nuanced variables where he should have otherwise taken a net loss in points but didn’t because engine penalties, weather, played a role in how a weekend goes for yourself and the rival. Unlucky in Baku but equally lucky to walk away with 0 net point loss too.

Not everything was decided by drivers in these results standings. Team plays a massive role. And we learned this year, FIA giving a driver plot armour makes a massive difference as well :lol:

one might think of laps led but they weren’t all led by Max’s doing, they were reflective of red bull strategy to be aggressive and go for track position when Mercedes was much more conservative with tyres and often found themselves pitting second and having to go for the lead in the final phase of races.
I wouldn’t disagree about luck being a part of motorsport, (I’m just reading lewis’ biography and he was desperately unlucky not to have won in 2007). However, rules and precedent around safety cars (that have been applied consistently previously) cannot be subject to, or described as luck, otherwise it’s not racing, it’s gambling. It’s especially galling since Masi himself tweeted after France 2020 (I think) that the rules allow for all or none of the lapped cars to unlap themselves, not some arbitrary number of his own making.
That’s what I thought I had said, that’s what I’m saying anyway. Agree.

Jolle
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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If Masi wanted the race to finish under green, he should of red flagged it when Latifi went into the wall. Now he bended their own rules for show.
Sport has rules. Verstappen won a show, not a sport. Sport has rules, that sets it apart from play and show.

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Agree. it's sad that some can't or won't see what the actual bigger picture issue is with what happened and why it's important the issue is addressed to ensure it never happens to any driver again. As mentioned it could easily have been Verstappen or anyone else who got stitched up by Masi and his overwhelming desire to create a spectacle rather than a correctly and fairly managed race. For anyone to say he managed that safety car and the ending of it correctly when it clearly contradicts the rules of the sport is just bizarre and somewhat lacking in perspective.

DChemTech
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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12 more pages? 8)

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Jolle wrote:
13 Jan 2022, 13:35
If Masi wanted the race to finish under green, he should of red flagged it when Latifi went into the wall. Now he bended their own rules for show.
Sport has rules. Verstappen won a show, not a sport. Sport has rules, that sets it apart from play and show.
Verstappen deserved to win the championship in a better fashion. He was a deserving Champion this year, and having people suggest you’re some sort of fictional champion is really unfair on merit of the season. The criticisms are warranted in terms of how the pivotal race was decided though. The last race was the race to settle the championship within the confines of the rules and regulations and FIA moves the goal posts for this result.

Tiny73
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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AeroDynamic wrote:
13 Jan 2022, 13:07
Tiny73 wrote:
13 Jan 2022, 13:00
AeroDynamic wrote:
13 Jan 2022, 12:53
This is a strange sense of logic to apply though.

Luck is part of motorsports, everyone accepts that. Abu Dhabi was no such luck. F1 does not investigate luck.

We can play what if games all the time and make ‘should be’ champions many years. There shouldn’t have been a gravel trip on a pit lane entry in 2007, unnecessary element to punish a driver. Tyre shouldn’t have blown up in Turkey 2007, and Alonso shouldn’t have been taking that podium. gearbox glitching in Brazil shouldn’t have happened, but it did. Tyre getting punctured by two BMW’s in the European Grand Prix after making way from a grid penalty to the front in the first lap, but guess what? It happened. So, no dream rookie champion in 07. That’s motorsports. Champions aren’t made based on entitlement from the would’ve/should’ve’s / good luck-bad luck. The driver having the best season doesn’t always win. Luck is needed.

That’s something we have to accept as part of it. That’s why, when you have 30 points lead, it’s worth keeping them than gambling them, because you don’t know when you’ll really need them (engine failures, or some other drivers coming together and taking you out with them)

Max had points from Spa he shouldn’t have had, and a number of fortunate points from many nuanced variables where he should have otherwise taken a net loss in points but didn’t because engine penalties, weather, played a role in how a weekend goes for yourself and the rival. Unlucky in Baku but equally lucky to walk away with 0 net point loss too.

Not everything was decided by drivers in these results standings. Team plays a massive role. And we learned this year, FIA giving a driver plot armour makes a massive difference as well :lol:

one might think of laps led but they weren’t all led by Max’s doing, they were reflective of red bull strategy to be aggressive and go for track position when Mercedes was much more conservative with tyres and often found themselves pitting second and having to go for the lead in the final phase of races.
I wouldn’t disagree about luck being a part of motorsport, (I’m just reading lewis’ biography and he was desperately unlucky not to have won in 2007). However, rules and precedent around safety cars (that have been applied consistently previously) cannot be subject to, or described as luck, otherwise it’s not racing, it’s gambling. It’s especially galling since Masi himself tweeted after France 2020 (I think) that the rules allow for all or none of the lapped cars to unlap themselves, not some arbitrary number of his own making.
That’s what I thought I had said, that’s what I’m saying anyway. Agree.
Then please accept my apologies, I misunderstood the intent of your post 👍🏻

Jolle
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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AeroDynamic wrote:
13 Jan 2022, 13:53
Jolle wrote:
13 Jan 2022, 13:35
If Masi wanted the race to finish under green, he should of red flagged it when Latifi went into the wall. Now he bended their own rules for show.
Sport has rules. Verstappen won a show, not a sport. Sport has rules, that sets it apart from play and show.
Verstappen deserved to win the championship in a better fashion. He was a deserving Champion this year, and having people suggest you’re some sort of fictional champion is really unfair on merit of the season. The criticisms are warranted in terms of how the pivotal race was decided though. The last race was the race to settle the championship within the confines of the rules and regulations and FIA moves the goal posts for this result.
During the season RedBull attempted several times to influence the rules. Even Silverstone was a prime example. The rule is simple: the offence was punishable with a 10 s penalty. They bend over backwards to get that changed. If the season ran its course and rules got applied as they were written, Verstappen wouldn't been champion.
Of course, over a season he deserved a championship, but he only got it because Masi caved in at the pressure from RedBull two laps before the end.

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