2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Stu wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:00 pm
That historically it HAS been okay for an official to directly manipulate the results of a championship. It has happened on several previous occasions.
Just out of curiosity, what was overruled in 1990?

Wouldn’t surprise me if the WDC was manipulated against the McLaren drivers by McLaren themselves

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Stu
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:11 pm
Stu wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:00 pm
That historically it HAS been okay for an official to directly manipulate the results of a championship. It has happened on several previous occasions.
Just out of curiosity, what was overruled in 1990?

Wouldn’t surprise me if the WDC was manipulated against the McLaren drivers by McLaren themselves
1990 was an overrule by Balestre of stewards regarding pole position location, it had been successfully challenged prior to qualifying by McLaren.
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Stu wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:52 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:11 pm
Stu wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:00 pm
That historically it HAS been okay for an official to directly manipulate the results of a championship. It has happened on several previous occasions.
Just out of curiosity, what was overruled in 1990?

Wouldn’t surprise me if the WDC was manipulated against the McLaren drivers by McLaren themselves
1990 was an overrule by Balestre of stewards regarding pole position location, it had been successfully challenged prior to qualifying by McLaren.
Whatever happened on the last lap was within the rules of the sport. Was it within the spirit? No. Was allowing Hamilton to recover a lap and a half at Imola fair? No.

The whole debacle of Hamilton having lost the title because of a power or an authority is a myth. He and Mercedes lost it because of their own mistakes and lost it to a better driver. That's all.

Let's get on with it already! The whole world knows this retirement drama is just that, drama!

It is amazing how Abu Dhabi is being discussed to date yet Imola, Baku, Hungary are never discussed.

Verstappen would have won the WDC in either car. I would go as far as to say Wolff cost Hamilton the title with all his shenanigans and I had predicted this on this forum since 2018. Hamilton saved him that year and dear lord when it was closer he just collapsed.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

Csmith1980
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:41 pm
Stu wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:52 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:11 pm


Just out of curiosity, what was overruled in 1990?

Wouldn’t surprise me if the WDC was manipulated against the McLaren drivers by McLaren themselves
1990 was an overrule by Balestre of stewards regarding pole position location, it had been successfully challenged prior to qualifying by McLaren.
Whatever happened on the last lap was within the rules of the sport. Was it within the spirit? No. Was allowing Hamilton to recover a lap and a half at Imola fair? No.
Except it wasn’t within the rules

The whole debacle of Hamilton having lost the title because of a power or an authority is a myth. He and Mercedes lost it because of their own mistakes and lost it to a better driver. That's all.
What mistakes would those be specifically? You’d be seriously hard pressed to call max the better driver considering his “tactics” this season

Let's get on with it already! The whole world knows this retirement drama is just that, drama!
Created by the media
It is amazing how Abu Dhabi is being discussed to date yet Imola, Baku, Hungary are never discussed.
Redbull fans literally can’t stop talking about Bacu, Hungary, imola and silverstone
Verstappen would have won the WDC in either car. I would go as far as to say Wolff cost Hamilton the title with all his shenanigans and I had predicted this on this forum since 2018. Hamilton saved him that year and dear lord when it was closer he just collapsed.
Please explain how Wolff cost Hamilton the championship

Csmith1980
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Stu wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:00 pm
That historically it HAS been okay for an official to directly manipulate the results of a championship. It has happened on several previous occasions.
Nope, those occasions weren’t ok either.

Tvetovnato
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:41 pm
Stu wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:52 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:11 pm


Just out of curiosity, what was overruled in 1990?

Wouldn’t surprise me if the WDC was manipulated against the McLaren drivers by McLaren themselves
1990 was an overrule by Balestre of stewards regarding pole position location, it had been successfully challenged prior to qualifying by McLaren.
Whatever happened on the last lap was within the rules of the sport. Was it within the spirit? No. Was allowing Hamilton to recover a lap and a half at Imola fair? No.

The whole debacle of Hamilton having lost the title because of a power or an authority is a myth. He and Mercedes lost it because of their own mistakes and lost it to a better driver. That's all.

Let's get on with it already! The whole world knows this retirement drama is just that, drama!

It is amazing how Abu Dhabi is being discussed to date yet Imola, Baku, Hungary are never discussed.

Verstappen would have won the WDC in either car. I would go as far as to say Wolff cost Hamilton the title with all his shenanigans and I had predicted this on this forum since 2018. Hamilton saved him that year and dear lord when it was closer he just collapsed.
The reason you don’t see any reasonable comparisons with Imola, Baku, Hungary is that those are completely incomparable with Abu Dhabi to start with. Those were all cases of luck/bad luck, as happens in all sports every year and always has an impact on the season result. Abu Dhabi was not luck or bad luck, it was a case of the race director deciding to break the SC rules in a way that has never been seen before, just in order to benefit no one else than Verstappen, since it was only the cars between him and Hamilton that were cleared. Thus he didn’t care about anyone else on the grid at that time, i.e not providing the same racing opportunities for everyone. What suprises me is that people actually still try to defend this. I would never want my favourite driver to win the championship in that way, no matter how deserving he is during a season. Sporting fairness should always be central in sports, and it obviously wasn’t here. It was a staging of the result, and it’s as criminal now as it was in December.

Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Tvetovnato wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:44 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:41 pm
Stu wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:52 pm


1990 was an overrule by Balestre of stewards regarding pole position location, it had been successfully challenged prior to qualifying by McLaren.
Whatever happened on the last lap was within the rules of the sport. Was it within the spirit? No. Was allowing Hamilton to recover a lap and a half at Imola fair? No.

The whole debacle of Hamilton having lost the title because of a power or an authority is a myth. He and Mercedes lost it because of their own mistakes and lost it to a better driver. That's all.

Let's get on with it already! The whole world knows this retirement drama is just that, drama!

It is amazing how Abu Dhabi is being discussed to date yet Imola, Baku, Hungary are never discussed.

Verstappen would have won the WDC in either car. I would go as far as to say Wolff cost Hamilton the title with all his shenanigans and I had predicted this on this forum since 2018. Hamilton saved him that year and dear lord when it was closer he just collapsed.
The reason you don’t see any reasonable comparisons with Imola, Baku, Hungary is that those are completely incomparable with Abu Dhabi to start with. Those were all cases of luck/bad luck, as happens in all sports every year and always has an impact on the season result. Abu Dhabi was not luck or bad luck, it was a case of the race director deciding to break the SC rules in a way that has never been seen before, just in order to benefit no one else than Verstappen, since it was only the cars between him and Hamilton that were cleared. Thus he didn’t care about anyone else on the grid at that time, i.e not providing the same racing opportunities for everyone. What suprises me is that people actually still try to defend this. I would never want my favourite driver to win the championship in that way, no matter how deserving he is during a season. Sporting fairness should always be central in sports, and it obviously wasn’t here. It was a staging of the result, and it’s as criminal now as it was in December.
The decisions made by the RD in AD were as bad in the first lap as the last. So your single focus on the last lap happenings is quite telling on where and when you care about sporting fairness

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Stu wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:00 pm
That historically it HAS been okay for an official to directly manipulate the results of a championship. It has happened on several previous occasions.
Don't agree. They had written rules set for those and the authorities could legitimately point to some written rule for their exaggerated actions.
Masi can't point to any written rule because he made up his own.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Alexf1 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:08 pm
Tvetovnato wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:44 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:41 pm


Whatever happened on the last lap was within the rules of the sport. Was it within the spirit? No. Was allowing Hamilton to recover a lap and a half at Imola fair? No.

The whole debacle of Hamilton having lost the title because of a power or an authority is a myth. He and Mercedes lost it because of their own mistakes and lost it to a better driver. That's all.

Let's get on with it already! The whole world knows this retirement drama is just that, drama!

It is amazing how Abu Dhabi is being discussed to date yet Imola, Baku, Hungary are never discussed.

Verstappen would have won the WDC in either car. I would go as far as to say Wolff cost Hamilton the title with all his shenanigans and I had predicted this on this forum since 2018. Hamilton saved him that year and dear lord when it was closer he just collapsed.
The reason you don’t see any reasonable comparisons with Imola, Baku, Hungary is that those are completely incomparable with Abu Dhabi to start with. Those were all cases of luck/bad luck, as happens in all sports every year and always has an impact on the season result. Abu Dhabi was not luck or bad luck, it was a case of the race director deciding to break the SC rules in a way that has never been seen before, just in order to benefit no one else than Verstappen, since it was only the cars between him and Hamilton that were cleared. Thus he didn’t care about anyone else on the grid at that time, i.e not providing the same racing opportunities for everyone. What suprises me is that people actually still try to defend this. I would never want my favourite driver to win the championship in that way, no matter how deserving he is during a season. Sporting fairness should always be central in sports, and it obviously wasn’t here. It was a staging of the result, and it’s as criminal now as it was in December.
The decisions made by the RD in AD were as bad in the first lap as the last. So your single focus on the last lap happenings is quite telling on where and when you care about sporting fairness
The decisionin the first lap was by the stewards not the racing director. Masi can play a secondary role to point out an incident to the stewards if they haven't noticed it. Fortunately they did notice it and they took action and ordered Lewis to relinquish the advantaged gained by crossing the track.

The conducting of the saftey car however, is Masi's responsibilty not the Stewards. The Stewards can maybe point out some concerns on track, and mete out punishments during a SC but that's about it. They don't direct the safety car.
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Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:16 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:08 pm
Tvetovnato wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:44 pm


The reason you don’t see any reasonable comparisons with Imola, Baku, Hungary is that those are completely incomparable with Abu Dhabi to start with. Those were all cases of luck/bad luck, as happens in all sports every year and always has an impact on the season result. Abu Dhabi was not luck or bad luck, it was a case of the race director deciding to break the SC rules in a way that has never been seen before, just in order to benefit no one else than Verstappen, since it was only the cars between him and Hamilton that were cleared. Thus he didn’t care about anyone else on the grid at that time, i.e not providing the same racing opportunities for everyone. What suprises me is that people actually still try to defend this. I would never want my favourite driver to win the championship in that way, no matter how deserving he is during a season. Sporting fairness should always be central in sports, and it obviously wasn’t here. It was a staging of the result, and it’s as criminal now as it was in December.
The decisions made by the RD in AD were as bad in the first lap as the last. So your single focus on the last lap happenings is quite telling on where and when you care about sporting fairness
The decisionin the first lap was by the stewards not the racing director. Masi can play a secondary role to point out an incident to the stewards if they haven't noticed it. Fortunately they did notice it and they took action and ordered Lewis to relinquish the advantaged gained by crossing the track.

The conducting of the saftey car however, is Masi's responsibilty not the Stewards. The Stewards can maybe point out some concerns on track, and mete out punishments during a SC but that's about it. They don't direct the safety car.
Exactly, he should have pointed out to the stewards that car 33 was ahead at the apex and made the corner on track so car 44 had to give the place back

Tvetovnato
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

Post

Alexf1 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:08 pm
Tvetovnato wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:44 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:41 pm


Whatever happened on the last lap was within the rules of the sport. Was it within the spirit? No. Was allowing Hamilton to recover a lap and a half at Imola fair? No.

The whole debacle of Hamilton having lost the title because of a power or an authority is a myth. He and Mercedes lost it because of their own mistakes and lost it to a better driver. That's all.

Let's get on with it already! The whole world knows this retirement drama is just that, drama!

It is amazing how Abu Dhabi is being discussed to date yet Imola, Baku, Hungary are never discussed.

Verstappen would have won the WDC in either car. I would go as far as to say Wolff cost Hamilton the title with all his shenanigans and I had predicted this on this forum since 2018. Hamilton saved him that year and dear lord when it was closer he just collapsed.
The reason you don’t see any reasonable comparisons with Imola, Baku, Hungary is that those are completely incomparable with Abu Dhabi to start with. Those were all cases of luck/bad luck, as happens in all sports every year and always has an impact on the season result. Abu Dhabi was not luck or bad luck, it was a case of the race director deciding to break the SC rules in a way that has never been seen before, just in order to benefit no one else than Verstappen, since it was only the cars between him and Hamilton that were cleared. Thus he didn’t care about anyone else on the grid at that time, i.e not providing the same racing opportunities for everyone. What suprises me is that people actually still try to defend this. I would never want my favourite driver to win the championship in that way, no matter how deserving he is during a season. Sporting fairness should always be central in sports, and it obviously wasn’t here. It was a staging of the result, and it’s as criminal now as it was in December.
The decisions made by the RD in AD were as bad in the first lap as the last. So your single focus on the last lap happenings is quite telling on where and when you care about sporting fairness
If you know anything about racing ethics, you would know why they made the call they did on the first lap. Hamilton owned the corner and was about to turn in as normal, and Verstappen made a desperate super late move as usual that he didn’t have the right to, hence the verdict. It’s the same every race. I advise you to look his antics at the restart in Jeddah to see how he races.

But I blame race direction and the ”let them race” BS for people not understanding what fair racing is nowadays. Let them race is a concept that F1 thought they had to implement to spice up the show, but all it does is to let mainly Verstappen off the hook with his dangerous and illegal driving (look his Brazil move for example) and takes away the finesse and skill of driving hard but CLEAN.

The last lap call is a real travesty. Not only for Hamilton, but for Verstappen too, since this will for ever be brought up when his first title is being discussed.

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 pm

Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

Post

Tvetovnato wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:32 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:08 pm
Tvetovnato wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:44 pm


The reason you don’t see any reasonable comparisons with Imola, Baku, Hungary is that those are completely incomparable with Abu Dhabi to start with. Those were all cases of luck/bad luck, as happens in all sports every year and always has an impact on the season result. Abu Dhabi was not luck or bad luck, it was a case of the race director deciding to break the SC rules in a way that has never been seen before, just in order to benefit no one else than Verstappen, since it was only the cars between him and Hamilton that were cleared. Thus he didn’t care about anyone else on the grid at that time, i.e not providing the same racing opportunities for everyone. What suprises me is that people actually still try to defend this. I would never want my favourite driver to win the championship in that way, no matter how deserving he is during a season. Sporting fairness should always be central in sports, and it obviously wasn’t here. It was a staging of the result, and it’s as criminal now as it was in December.
The decisions made by the RD in AD were as bad in the first lap as the last. So your single focus on the last lap happenings is quite telling on where and when you care about sporting fairness
If you know anything about racing ethics, you would know why they made the call they did on the first lap. Hamilton owned the corner and was about to turn in as normal, and Verstappen made a desperate super late move as usual that he didn’t have the right to, hence the verdict. It’s the same every race. I advise you to look his antics at the restart in Jeddah to see how he races.

But I blame race direction and the ”let them race” BS for people not understanding what fair racing is nowadays. Let them race is a concept that F1 thought they had to implement to spice up the show, but all it does is to let mainly Verstappen off the hook with his dangerous and illegal driving (look his Brazil move for example) and takes away the finesse and skill of driving hard but CLEAN.

The last lap call is a real travesty. Not only for Hamilton, but for Verstappen too, since this will for ever be brought up when his first title is being discussed.
So every divebomb Ricciardo ever made was illegal? Max was on the red tyre, no wonder he could do what he did. By the way: In your first sentence you already disqualify yourself.

Tvetovnato
Tvetovnato
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

Post

Alexf1 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:55 pm
Tvetovnato wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:32 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:08 pm


The decisions made by the RD in AD were as bad in the first lap as the last. So your single focus on the last lap happenings is quite telling on where and when you care about sporting fairness
If you know anything about racing ethics, you would know why they made the call they did on the first lap. Hamilton owned the corner and was about to turn in as normal, and Verstappen made a desperate super late move as usual that he didn’t have the right to, hence the verdict. It’s the same every race. I advise you to look his antics at the restart in Jeddah to see how he races.

But I blame race direction and the ”let them race” BS for people not understanding what fair racing is nowadays. Let them race is a concept that F1 thought they had to implement to spice up the show, but all it does is to let mainly Verstappen off the hook with his dangerous and illegal driving (look his Brazil move for example) and takes away the finesse and skill of driving hard but CLEAN.

The last lap call is a real travesty. Not only for Hamilton, but for Verstappen too, since this will for ever be brought up when his first title is being discussed.
So every divebomb Ricciardo ever made was illegal? Max was on the red tyre, no wonder he could do what he did. By the way: In your first sentence you already disqualify yourself.
He was bailed out by other drivers for his moves, yes, just as Max is being most of the time. If a crash happens, it’s on him. I don’t disqualify myself anywhere, all I see is you conveniently avoiding the discussion about breaking the SC rules and favouring no one in the entire field but Max, just to allow him to get his first (tainted) title.

But, whatever works for Drive to Survive, right?

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

Post

Tvetovnato wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:38 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:55 pm
Tvetovnato wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:32 pm


If you know anything about racing ethics, you would know why they made the call they did on the first lap. Hamilton owned the corner and was about to turn in as normal, and Verstappen made a desperate super late move as usual that he didn’t have the right to, hence the verdict. It’s the same every race. I advise you to look his antics at the restart in Jeddah to see how he races.

But I blame race direction and the ”let them race” BS for people not understanding what fair racing is nowadays. Let them race is a concept that F1 thought they had to implement to spice up the show, but all it does is to let mainly Verstappen off the hook with his dangerous and illegal driving (look his Brazil move for example) and takes away the finesse and skill of driving hard but CLEAN.

The last lap call is a real travesty. Not only for Hamilton, but for Verstappen too, since this will for ever be brought up when his first title is being discussed.
So every divebomb Ricciardo ever made was illegal? Max was on the red tyre, no wonder he could do what he did. By the way: In your first sentence you already disqualify yourself.
He was bailed out by other drivers for his moves, yes, just as Max is being most of the time. If a crash happens, it’s on him. I don’t disqualify myself anywhere, all I see is you conveniently avoiding the discussion about breaking the SC rules and favouring no one in the entire field but Max, just to allow him to get his first (tainted) title.

But, whatever works for Drive to Survive, right?
There was as much of a breach in the last lap as there was in the first. Only steering the discussion towards the last says enough..
By the way, Max is not participating to that show because it's not real. Understand that different drivers have different approaches. Lewis scraps point and Max wants to win races. Lewis had a great season with all the luck he could have had. Lady luck just evened things out over the whole season. Good luck next year, I hope your man does well.

Tvetovnato
Tvetovnato
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Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:03 pm

Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

Post

Alexf1 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:09 pm
Tvetovnato wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:38 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:55 pm


So every divebomb Ricciardo ever made was illegal? Max was on the red tyre, no wonder he could do what he did. By the way: In your first sentence you already disqualify yourself.
He was bailed out by other drivers for his moves, yes, just as Max is being most of the time. If a crash happens, it’s on him. I don’t disqualify myself anywhere, all I see is you conveniently avoiding the discussion about breaking the SC rules and favouring no one in the entire field but Max, just to allow him to get his first (tainted) title.

But, whatever works for Drive to Survive, right?
There was as much of a breach in the last lap as there was in the first. Only steering the discussion towards the last says enough..
By the way, Max is not participating to that show because it's not real. Understand that different drivers have different approaches. Lewis scraps point and Max wants to win races. Lewis had a great season with all the luck he could have had. Lady luck just evened things out over the whole season. Good luck next year, I hope your man does well.
No it was not. It was investigated as the rules says you should, and not enough of an offence was found to warrant surrendering the place, just as I pointed out the reasons for. The last lap was a breach of procedures and giving one driver an unfair advantage that the rest of the field didn’t get to have. No matter how much you try, those incidents will never be comparable. That last lap had nothing to do with luck, so nothing evened out in that sense.