2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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GrizzleBoy wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 11:42

Indeed.

I don't understand how in March 2022, you can still have people making such strong arguments about this particular lap 1 incident and being so confident that Lewis as favoured by the stewards.

Rather than the case being that they just couldn't penalise Lewis for leaving the track during an overtaking attempt when his only other option was to park his car and wait for Max to finally turn after his divebomb that he barely kept on track or keep going and crash while Max was parked sideways across the racing line.

IMHO, 2021 has exposed Max for actually having quite poor racing ability.

He's fine when his car is fast enough to zoom past (and even then he'll send you over the kerbs), but when he has to fight in a car that isn't clearly faster, he can barely keep the thing on the road.

I think him winning the title in the fashion that he did in terms of where it will be forever linked with one of the most prolific names ever in the sport being "robbed" of a record setting wdc, might not have such a sting if he had been able to conduct himself better when racing for it.

But when you watch these 2021 races back in history, when all the fanaticism has died down and the orange shirts and F1 polls are not being bombed by an online army, what are you going to see?

Max barging his rival off the road at almost every opportunity in the early races.

Coming a cropper at Silverstone when his rival finally decided to actually put up a fight. (walking away perfectly fine yet crying about being "hospitalised").

Literally hitting Lewis in the head with his car in Monza.

The Maldonado level driving in Saudi, earning a penalty almost every single time he met with Lewis on track, including for telemetry proven brake checking.

The laughable defense in Brazil.

And finally being steamrolled in the final race, where his only chance of victory was if an FIA official quite literally fiddled the race to make it so had could have a chance. Resulting in that official losing their job and an internal FIA investigation.

And to top it off, almost nothing you can point to that shows any great actual racing in 2021. What battles did he have? Does anyone remember off the top of their head any particularly spectacular things he did in 2021?

The entire F1 community is praising Perez's racing skills. Who is even talking about Maxs racing skills unless it's to complain about the lack of them? Even Martin Brundle who seems to call everything Max does "genius" sounded jaded after the Saudi grand prix and said Max needed to "think about his driving standards".

Max has the WDC and he will never show that he cares externally, but unless he's not actually human, he'll always have this hanging over his head unless and until he makes his mark in a more satisfying way for himself and the rest of the F1 fanship.
=D>

He does seem to drive like a mix of Magnussen and Moldanado. If the stewards and Masi (which started to apply the rules like we expect after drivers briefed him about their confusion with Brazil T4 :lol: ) then he would've had a very difficult time securing the points he needed to win some of those races. He might have been banned for a race as well. He's getting closer to it this season.

:lol:

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Despite having good spatial awareness and car placement skills, Max is not the most graceful overtaker that is for sure. He overtakes by force or by scaring other drivers. But I like that he goes for it without hesitation. Makes watching the races fun. A bit like Maldonado in that respect. And no I am being serious here, I liked Maldonado's aggression.

Speaking of aggression, when I go back and watch the seasons with lighter cars, pre 2014, it really night and day the level of aggressiveness across the grid. It's almost shocking how drivers regularly banged wheels. The cars were nimble and they could take some hits and recoil without too much damage.
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 16:14
Despite having good spatial awareness and car placement skills, Max is not the most graceful overtaker that is for sure. He overtakes by force or by scaring other drivers. But I like that he goes for it without hesitation. Makes watching the races fun. A bit like Maldonado in that respect. And no I am being serious here, I liked Maldonado's aggression.
You and I have drastically different views on what constitutes skill and aggression in regards to auto racing!
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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dans79 wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 16:16
PlatinumZealot wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 16:14
Despite having good spatial awareness and car placement skills, Max is not the most graceful overtaker that is for sure. He overtakes by force or by scaring other drivers. But I like that he goes for it without hesitation. Makes watching the races fun. A bit like Maldonado in that respect. And no I am being serious here, I liked Maldonado's aggression.
You and I have drastically different views on what constitutes skill and aggression in regards to auto racing!
Don't get me wrong, I don't like how he overtakes; I rather "dancers" like Alonso, Kimi, Lewis, Carlos etc... but having Max there adds some edge of the seat entertainment. He's there to spoil the ballet. :lol:
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Tvetovnato
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 16:26
dans79 wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 16:16
PlatinumZealot wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 16:14
Despite having good spatial awareness and car placement skills, Max is not the most graceful overtaker that is for sure. He overtakes by force or by scaring other drivers. But I like that he goes for it without hesitation. Makes watching the races fun. A bit like Maldonado in that respect. And no I am being serious here, I liked Maldonado's aggression.
You and I have drastically different views on what constitutes skill and aggression in regards to auto racing!
Don't get me wrong, I don't like how he overtakes; I rather "dancers" like Alonso, Kimi, Lewis, Carlos etc... but having Max there adds some edge of the seat entertainment. He's there to spoil the ballet. :lol:
I have a hard time seeing it as entertaining, since it’s basically breaking the rules. For me it’s like a football player would see that he is out of room, and decides to run outside the pitch with the ball to get a scoring chance and then gets away with it because ”that’s just how he is”, and he ”plays hard”. There it wouldn’t even be a debate that a rule breach has been made. And nor should it have been in many of the battles last season in F1. You only see this kind of lenience in F1 for some reason, since the FIA seem to think that people would not find the races entertaining if people didn’t overtake eachother, even if it involves bending or breaking the rules.

I’m all for hard racing, but hard racing must be within the rules, or it’s no longer a sport. It doesn’t require any skill to just brake unreasonably late and let the driver in front move out of the way or else risking a crash. Anyone can do that. If you aren’t close enough or in the right position to overtake legally, you simply wait until you get a proper chance to do it right. Most drivers seem to get that. I really hope they will sort this out going forward, but given the FIA track record, my hopes aren’t high.

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ringo
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Not all the drivers will be able to dance like Lewis, Alonso Kimi, Mark Webber.
Carlos is also good and Russel I like watching. Defensively; Perez and Tsunoda and Hamilton.
Max is one of the wheel bangers and divers. I think the redbull drivers have this trait. Daniel and Vettel also. It's not the greatest of racing, but all of them cannot have the same grace with race craft. Max does defend better than he attacks though. His weaving and double moves are the only thin he needs to fix for his defense.

But as for this race, it's fair to say the only inconsistency was the SC debacle. The Hamilton cutting the track thing was a fair judgement. What I think though is the gap to Max after was too big. The gap should have been restored to about 3 seconds or whatever it was.
Hamilton did slow down but I think he could have done more. This is more of a issue of weighting more than a breach.
For Sure!!

Dee
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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GrizzleBoy wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 11:42
Tvetovnato wrote:
27 Feb 2022, 13:11
NathanOlder wrote:
27 Feb 2022, 11:48


To answer those questions , it is quite simple ,

Part 1, Hamilton's corner cutting was caused by the car behind diveboming.

Here you can see the RedBull is around 2.5 car lengths behind, you have the length of the Mercedes, then the gap (which is easily big enough for anouther car) so its a good 2.5 car lengths which is around 15m. As last years cars were approaching 6m long. So coming from around 15m back is a big lunge.

https://i.imgur.com/gsz62Tk.jpg

When coming from this far back, you are NOT entitled to take what line you want, you do not own the corner. You need to be almost level when entering the braking zone, not 15m back.

Here you can see Max is now level at the apex but is carrying too much speed to make sure he leaves space for the car on the outside , because he doesn't own the corner coming from so far back. at this point the move is still fine, as he has still given Hamilton a cars width.

https://i.imgur.com/PVJGijQ.jpg

Now this is where it goes wrong for Max, He has now not given Lewis enough room and there is still an overlap between the 2 cars. Lewis is now forced to leave the circuit as a result of a divebomb where the car attacking didnt leave the required space when coming from so far back.

https://i.imgur.com/1DfxM7n.jpg

Next you can even see Max barely kept his own car on the track, let alone leave enough room for the car he divebombed.

https://i.imgur.com/mwpH4Nh.jpg

So this is the reason Lewis wasn't penalised and the stewards did not help either driver here, they just did their job. If you or anyone feels differently, please take time to explain.

Part 2

The 10 car length rule is only on the formation lap, which this was not. No argument here.

Part 3

The 'early race' as you put it, was Imola. The race was Red Flagged for a huge crash, there was no other possible outcome. This was nothing the stewards or Masi did to help Lewis. Lewis just got lucky that there was a red flag (or even a safety car would have had the same effect) after he lost all that time at Tosa. So again no argument here.
Part 1 is a really good breakdown of how racing rules work, and I wish F1 or the FIA would take more time to explain this for the generic fanbase, since this is exactly how it should be. Good job.
Indeed.

I don't understand how in March 2022, you can still have people making such strong arguments about this particular lap 1 incident and being so confident that Lewis as favoured by the stewards.

Rather than the case being that they just couldn't penalise Lewis for leaving the track during an overtaking attempt when his only other option was to park his car and wait for Max to finally turn after his divebomb that he barely kept on track or keep going and crash while Max was parked sideways across the racing line.

IMHO, 2021 has exposed Max for actually having quite poor racing ability.

He's fine when his car is fast enough to zoom past (and even then he'll send you over the kerbs), but when he has to fight in a car that isn't clearly faster, he can barely keep the thing on the road.

I think him winning the title in the fashion that he did in terms of where it will be forever linked with one of the most prolific names ever in the sport being "robbed" of a record setting wdc, might not have such a sting if he had been able to conduct himself better when racing for it.

But when you watch these 2021 races back in history, when all the fanaticism has died down and the orange shirts and F1 polls are not being bombed by an online army, what are you going to see?

Max barging his rival off the road at almost every opportunity in the early races.

Coming a cropper at Silverstone when his rival finally decided to actually put up a fight. (walking away perfectly fine yet crying about being "hospitalised").

Literally hitting Lewis in the head with his car in Monza.

The Maldonado level driving in Saudi, earning a penalty almost every single time he met with Lewis on track, including for telemetry proven brake checking.

The laughable defense in Brazil.

And finally being steamrolled in the final race, where his only chance of victory was if an FIA official quite literally fiddled the race to make it so had could have a chance. Resulting in that official losing their job and an internal FIA investigation.

And to top it off, almost nothing you can point to that shows any great actual racing in 2021. What battles did he have? Does anyone remember off the top of their head any particularly spectacular things he did in 2021?

The entire F1 community is praising Perez's racing skills. Who is even talking about Maxs racing skills unless it's to complain about the lack of them? Even Martin Brundle who seems to call everything Max does "genius" sounded jaded after the Saudi grand prix and said Max needed to "think about his driving standards".

Max has the WDC and he will never show that he cares externally, but unless he's not actually human, he'll always have this hanging over his head unless and until he makes his mark in a more satisfying way for himself and the rest of the F1 fanship.
Max and Lewis were most of the time around 0.1/0.2 per lap off each others pace all year. There was no way they were overtaking each other during a race unless they had a massive tyre delta. The only option was at the start. This year was no beautiful game, this was a battle.

France
Austria Double
Baku
Cota
Zandvoort
Sochi (Over 2.5 million views on youtube for his last 5 laps)
Hungary
Mexico

All amazing performances

Mexico and Jeddah had two of the best double overtakes of the season and both were done by Verstappen

From 2014 to 2021, Max won the FIA action of the year award three times

Max can battle clean or battle hard. Either way, he will overtake

Some of his best battles have been

* The entire grid Brazil 2016
* Rosberg Silverstone 2016
* Leclerc SIlverstone 2019
* Hamilton Brazil 2019

Some of his best overtakes;

* Rosberg Brazil 2016
* Hamilton Brazil 2019
* Leclerc Abu Dhabi 2020
* Bottas and Hamilton Mexico 2021
* Hamilton and Ocon Jeddah 2021
* Hamilton Baku 2021

among many, many others

You can believe your own hype that Max needs to prove something

Max needs to prove nothing to those who have watched him race since 2014
Last edited by Dee on 02 Mar 2022, 17:57, edited 2 times in total.

basti313
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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AMG.Tzan wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 14:41
Why is this topic still open?? It's March already...
I do not understand this either...I barely remember the race.
I just remember that Max Verstappen is the champion.
So I am surprised by the discussion on overtaking abilities, that does not make any sense.


:twisted:

But it is fun to read "dancing" from the Lewis fanboys here. I remember Lewis "dancing" Rosberg off the track regularly or "dancing" with Massa....but I am surprised that they want to talk down that Lewis is like the other big ones a ruthless overtaker. But maybe this is the difference and this is why I do not remember him as champion in 2021? Verstappen is certainly more a consequent and ruthless overtaker like Schumacher or Senna if the experts claim Ham is rather a "dancer"???

Where are all the Max fanboys gone when there is such an interesting question to clarify...could make this thread another 100 pages.... :mrgreen:
Last edited by basti313 on 02 Mar 2022, 18:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Ryar
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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basti313 wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 17:51
AMG.Tzan wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 14:41
Why is this topic still open?? It's March already...
I do not understand this either...I barely remember the race.

I just remember that Max Verstappen is the champion. So I am surprised by the discussion on overtaking abilities, that does not make any sense.
There has to be a place holder to vent the frustrations of a title loss. I think it's ok to have this for one more year atleast as it continues to witness the traffic. This is a good place to come and visit once in a while. :)
Hakuna Matata!

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Dee wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 17:47
You can believe your own hype that Max needs to prove something

Max needs to prove nothing to those who have watched him race since 2014
He has everything to prove as far as I'm concerned. He is just as juvenile as he was in 2016, it's just that's the car he drives has gotten faster so he spends more time at the front now, instead of in the best of the rest zone where interactions with other drivers is more routine!

He's shows no signs of maturing, but that's to be expected given the enablers he is surrounded by that constantly whisper in his ear, and lobby for "hard racing", and "let them race" as long as it benefits Max.

Again in my opinion, he will not legitimately win a championships if the rules go back to the pre 2019 style without a significant change in his attitude and driving style!

The * will remain until he wins a championship legitimately, if he can!
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Ryar wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 17:59
basti313 wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 17:51
AMG.Tzan wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 14:41
Why is this topic still open?? It's March already...
I do not understand this either...I barely remember the race.

I just remember that Max Verstappen is the champion. So I am surprised by the discussion on overtaking abilities, that does not make any sense.
There has to be a place holder to vent the frustrations of a title loss. I think it's ok to have this for one more year atleast as it continues to witness the traffic. This is a good place to come and visit once in a while. :)
If it stops trolling of other threads, then it's a good thing. :wink:
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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basti313 wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 17:51
AMG.Tzan wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 14:41
Why is this topic still open?? It's March already...
I do not understand this either...I barely remember the race.
I just remember that Max Verstappen is the champion.
So I am surprised by the discussion on overtaking abilities, that does not make any sense.


:twisted:

But it is fun to read "dancing" from the Lewis fanboys here. I remember Lewis "dancing" Rosberg off the track regularly or "dancing" with Massa....but I am surprised that they want to talk down that Lewis is like the other big ones a ruthless overtaker. But maybe this is the difference and this is why I do not remember him as champion in 2021? Verstappen is certainly more a consequent and ruthless overtaker like Schumacher or Senna if the experts claim Ham is rather a "dancer"???

Where are all the Max fanboys gone when there is such an interesting question to clarify...could make this thread another 100 pages.... :mrgreen:
It was Fernando Alonso that coined that term. Yes, there is a clean way to squeeze out of road, but you do it only if you are ahead driving into a closing space. Otherwise you must leave one cars width. (You must leave-a-da-space!)
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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basti313 wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 17:51
AMG.Tzan wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 14:41
Why is this topic still open?? It's March already...
I do not understand this either...I barely remember the race.
I just remember that Max Verstappen is the champion.
So I am surprised by the discussion on overtaking abilities, that does not make any sense.


:twisted:

But it is fun to read "dancing" from the Lewis fanboys here. I remember Lewis "dancing" Rosberg off the track regularly or "dancing" with Massa....but I am surprised that they want to talk down that Lewis is like the other big ones a ruthless overtaker. But maybe this is the difference and this is why I do not remember him as champion in 2021? Verstappen is certainly more a consequent and ruthless overtaker like Schumacher or Senna if the experts claim Ham is rather a "dancer"???

Where are all the Max fanboys gone when there is such an interesting question to clarify...could make this thread another 100 pages.... :mrgreen:
The trouble is , the bold part isn't allowed in todays racing, Senna certainly wasn't breaking rules like today as the rule book has grown so much since then.
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Dee
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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dans79 wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 18:13
Dee wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 17:47
You can believe your own hype that Max needs to prove something

Max needs to prove nothing to those who have watched him race since 2014
He has everything to prove as far as I'm concerned. He is just as juvenile as he was in 2016, it's just that's the car he drives has gotten faster so he spends more time at the front now, instead of in the best of the rest zone where interactions with other drivers is more routine!

He's shows no signs of maturing, but that's to be expected given the enablers he is surrounded by that constantly whisper in his ear, and lobby for "hard racing", and "let them race" as long as it benefits Max.

Again in my opinion, he will not legitimately win a championships if the rules go back to the pre 2019 style without a significant change in his attitude and driving style!

The * will remain until he wins a championship legitimately, if he can!
Oh my god, the bitterness is astounding

Let's look at 2016 shall we

In 2016, Max broke the record for most overtakes ever done by a driver during a season - 78 https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/over ... n%20(2016)

He also received 1 penalty point during the entire season, 21 races, at Mexico for leaving the track, the exact same thing Hamilton did, which he was not penalised for https://www.racefans.net/2016-f1-season ... ies-index/

I don't know what has happened to long term watchers of the sport, but somehow, a lot of them have lost all reason when it comes to Max and his race craft

If you want to talk about the championship this year, Max would have had it won in Brazil if not for bad luck which was out of his control so saying if he can legitimately ever win a WDC while also knowing that information is extremely churlish

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Dee wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 18:40
He also received 1 penalty point during the entire season, 21 races, at Mexico for leaving the track, the exact same thing Hamilton did, which he was not penalised for https://www.racefans.net/2016-f1-season ... ies-index/
Penalty points is but part of the story!

this is but one example of why we got the Verstappen rule.


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-d ... 8/5019118/
"Some of the incidents that we saw last year may be handled slightly differently, simply because the so-called 'Verstappen rule' has gone," said F1 race director Charlie Whiting ahead of the Australian Grand Prix this weekend.
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