2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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chrisc90 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:11 pm
What happened in Bahrain when Hamilton was off the track 29 times? Was that not gaining a lasting advantage?
It was estimated 3 seconds gained by Lewis over the race. Such was the pace difference that the three seconds was not enough to stop the RedBull from winning though! RedBull lost because of a botched overtake.


On lap 32, Verstappen was informed by his team that Hamilton was consistently exceeding track limits at turn 4, and that Verstappen could start doing the same, to which Verstappen replied: "... how is that legal, ... I thought we weren't allowed to do that".[35] Hamilton was warned about exceeding track limits at turn 4 on lap 38; he had committed this offence 29 times, with Hamilton stating "I thought there was no track limits".[35][36] When Verstappen pitted a couple of laps later, he emerged nine seconds behind Hamilton, but on much fresher tyres, with sixteen laps remaining in the race. Verstappen quickly closed the gap to his rival, going faster than anyone else in the process.
By the start of lap 51, Verstappen had closed to within a second of Hamilton, and launched his attack when Hamilton ran wide on the exit of turn 10.[17] The next lap, he overtook the Mercedes around the outside of turn 4; however, since he completed the overtake by going off the track, he was instructed by the team to hand the position back, which he did between turns 10 and 11.[37] The Red Bull was then hit by oversteer caused by the dirty air off the Mercedes on the exit of turn 13, and Verstappen lost significant time trying to bring it under control. This gave Hamilton the opportunity to pull away, and the rapidly-closing Verstappen was not able to overtake before the end of the race.
Leading figures from both of the top teams expressed confusion over the regulations on track limits, especially those at turn 4. It was later reported that the confusion had stemmed from a pre-race instruction that turn limits at turn 4 would only be enforced in cases where 'a lasting advantage' was gained in the race. The stewards interpreted this as meaning that only overtaking off-track was not allowed; however, post-race analysis proved that Hamilton had gained almost three seconds at turn 4, with running wide worth at least 0.1 seconds per lap
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chrisc90
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Dee wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:25 pm
AeroDynamic wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:19 pm
chrisc90 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:11 pm
What happened in Bahrain when Hamilton was off the track 29 times? Was that not gaining a lasting advantage?
so were other drivers. Max and RBR just slept on the brief notes pre race. Max also slept on the rule about overtaking outside of the track (different rule) :oops:
Max did not sleep on the notes pre race, he was going off track as much as the other drivers but not as much as what Hamilton was doing. When RB told him to repeat what Lewis was doing, they were told it was now banned. Changing of rules mid race, like in Abu Dhabi
Easy way to stop this is to make the white line the defining limit of the circuit. Cross over it with all 4 wheels, you get warning or penalty. You dont see them running wide on corners where there is grass or gravel.
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Dee wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:23 pm
Max had given the place back at that point but was still penalised. Hamilton went off track at turn one, gained a lasting advantage and was never penalized.
Max did it more than once, hence why he was penalized. Also there a difference between being forced off track and doing it on your own!
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Dee
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:26 pm
chrisc90 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:11 pm
What happened in Bahrain when Hamilton was off the track 29 times? Was that not gaining a lasting advantage?
It was estimated 3 seconds gained by Lewis over the race. Such was the pace difference that the three seconds was not enough to stop the RedBull from winning though! RedBull lost because of a botched overtake.


On lap 32, Verstappen was informed by his team that Hamilton was consistently exceeding track limits at turn 4, and that Verstappen could start doing the same, to which Verstappen replied: "... how is that legal, ... I thought we weren't allowed to do that".[35] Hamilton was warned about exceeding track limits at turn 4 on lap 38; he had committed this offence 29 times, with Hamilton stating "I thought there was no track limits".[35][36] When Verstappen pitted a couple of laps later, he emerged nine seconds behind Hamilton, but on much fresher tyres, with sixteen laps remaining in the race. Verstappen quickly closed the gap to his rival, going faster than anyone else in the process.
By the start of lap 51, Verstappen had closed to within a second of Hamilton, and launched his attack when Hamilton ran wide on the exit of turn 10.[17] The next lap, he overtook the Mercedes around the outside of turn 4; however, since he completed the overtake by going off the track, he was instructed by the team to hand the position back, which he did between turns 10 and 11.[37] The Red Bull was then hit by oversteer caused by the dirty air off the Mercedes on the exit of turn 13, and Verstappen lost significant time trying to bring it under control. This gave Hamilton the opportunity to pull away, and the rapidly-closing Verstappen was not able to overtake before the end of the race.
Leading figures from both of the top teams expressed confusion over the regulations on track limits, especially those at turn 4. It was later reported that the confusion had stemmed from a pre-race instruction that turn limits at turn 4 would only be enforced in cases where 'a lasting advantage' was gained in the race. The stewards interpreted this as meaning that only overtaking off-track was not allowed; however, post-race analysis proved that Hamilton had gained almost three seconds at turn 4, with running wide worth at least 0.1 seconds per lap
It was later reported that the confusion had stemmed from a pre-race instruction that turn limits at turn 4 would only be enforced in cases where 'a lasting advantage' was gained in the race.


Hamilton broke the limits 29 times, gaining 3 seconds, therefore should have been given a penalty but wasn't

A penalty would have given Max the win

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chrisc90
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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dans79 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:29 pm
Dee wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:23 pm
Max had given the place back at that point but was still penalised. Hamilton went off track at turn one, gained a lasting advantage and was never penalized.
Max did it more than once, hence why he was penalized. Also there a difference between being forced off track and doing it on your own!
Hamilton at Jeddah Turn 27 ran Max out of road.
Hamilton ran Perez out of road in COTA forcing him to cross the pit entry?
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Dee wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:25 pm
AeroDynamic wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:19 pm
chrisc90 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:11 pm
What happened in Bahrain when Hamilton was off the track 29 times? Was that not gaining a lasting advantage?
so were other drivers. Max and RBR just slept on the brief notes pre race. Max also slept on the rule about overtaking outside of the track (different rule) :oops:
Max did not sleep on the notes pre race, he was going off track as much as the other drivers but not as much as what Hamilton was doing. When RB told him to repeat what Lewis was doing, they were told it was now banned. Changing of rules mid race, like in Abu Dhabi
You cut out a really small but significant part of the narrative of events there: When RB told him to repeat what Lewis was doing, Jonathan Wheatley signalled to the FIA that they wanted it to stop with a little sideways comment about Lewis doing it. So, I don't know why RBR or Max, or their fans would get upset that the FIA stepped in to stop it. They shot themselves in the foot.

chrisc90 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:31 pm
dans79 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:29 pm
Dee wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:23 pm
Max had given the place back at that point but was still penalised. Hamilton went off track at turn one, gained a lasting advantage and was never penalized.
Max did it more than once, hence why he was penalized. Also there a difference between being forced off track and doing it on your own!
Hamilton at Jeddah Turn 27 ran Max out of road.
Hamilton ran Perez out of road in COTA forcing him to cross the pit entry?

right, because his rival doing it all season long didn't set a preceadent that it was okay to do so.
Last edited by AeroDynamic on Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Dee wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:29 pm


It was later reported that the confusion had stemmed from a pre-race instruction that turn limits at turn 4 would only be enforced in cases where 'a lasting advantage' was gained in the race.


Hamilton broke the limits 29 times, gaining 3 seconds, therefore should have been given a penalty but wasn't

A penalty would have given Max the win
Lewis was warned on lap 38 and curtailed his track cutting. This is not a penalty.

The Stewards failed to give the warning earlier when everyone, inclduding Max were cutting thw track.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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chrisc90 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:31 pm
dans79 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:29 pm
Dee wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:23 pm
Max had given the place back at that point but was still penalised. Hamilton went off track at turn one, gained a lasting advantage and was never penalized.
Max did it more than once, hence why he was penalized. Also there a difference between being forced off track and doing it on your own!
Hamilton at Jeddah Turn 27 ran Max out of road.
Hamilton ran Perez out of road in COTA forcing him to cross the pit entry?
Nope. Max had no where to go in Jeddah and pushed his car, which his lifting trick in a desperate attempt to take the outside.

For Perez, COTA or Turkey?
Last edited by PlatinumZealot on Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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chrisc90 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:31 pm
Hamilton at Jeddah Turn 27 ran Max out of road.
And he was warned for it.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/hamil ... p/6869707/
Masi warned Mercedes team manager Ron Meadows via team radio during the race that Hamilton’s move was borderline for a black and white flag for unsporting conduct.


chrisc90 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:31 pm
Hamilton ran Perez out of road in COTA forcing him to cross the pit entry?
what now?
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DChemTech
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Dee wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:25 pm
AeroDynamic wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:19 pm
chrisc90 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:11 pm
What happened in Bahrain when Hamilton was off the track 29 times? Was that not gaining a lasting advantage?
so were other drivers. Max and RBR just slept on the brief notes pre race. Max also slept on the rule about overtaking outside of the track (different rule) :oops:
Max did not sleep on the notes pre race, he was going off track as much as the other drivers but not as much as what Hamilton was doing. When RB told him to repeat what Lewis was doing, they were told it was now banned. Changing of rules mid race, like in Abu Dhabi
Exactly. And even if we go by the 'max needs to pay more attention' narrative, i would counter FIA needs to be clear at what are track limits: the white line is there for a reason, right? But we saw such bollocks before; usa 2017 everyone ran wide unpenalized, but when max did the same during an overtake he had to give back position. Lewis deserved to win AD, but had the FIA been fair, max would have won bahrein and the championship still.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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DChemTech wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:40 pm
usa 2017 everyone ran wide unpenalized, but when max did the same during an overtake he had to give back position.
Max didn't run wide, he literally cut the inside of the corner.
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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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DChemTech wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:40 pm
Dee wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:25 pm
AeroDynamic wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 02, 2022 7:19 pm


so were other drivers. Max and RBR just slept on the brief notes pre race. Max also slept on the rule about overtaking outside of the track (different rule) :oops:
Max did not sleep on the notes pre race, he was going off track as much as the other drivers but not as much as what Hamilton was doing. When RB told him to repeat what Lewis was doing, they were told it was now banned. Changing of rules mid race, like in Abu Dhabi
Exactly. And even if we go by the 'max needs to pay more attention' narrative, i would counter FIA needs to be clear at what are track limits: the white line is there for a reason, right? But we saw such bollocks before; usa 2017 everyone ran wide unpenalized, but when max did the same during an overtake he had to give back position. Lewis deserved to win AD, but had the FIA been fair, max would have won bahrein and the championship still.
Running wide (track limits) is less of a black and white issue as overtaking another car outside of the track. the latter is always clear and strongly policed.