2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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FittingMechanics wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:43 pm
mwillems wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:34 pm
It seems the "if" is not about the fact the CRB is saying that his license is only valid at Alpine (According to Otmar), so this seems to be favourable to Alpine if the CRB have said that he might have a contract elsewhere but he can only drive for Alpine in 2023. It means he has to come back to Alpine (He won't) or Mclaren will have to pay them off. That doesn't mean it is the outcome that Alpine wants, but it is certainly not the "Cleared to race for Mclaren" reporting we had heard.

It seems to be up in the air in terms of what the outcome will be and I suspect some important details are yet to be revealed.
It looks to me as purely speculative comment from Otmar.

He said they have no way to force him even if CRB rules in their favor. Which is technically true as no one can force a drive to sit in a car or drive fast. So he says that if that happens (CRB rules in their favor and Piastri does not want to drive), they have to go to civil court and sue for damages. So Otmar says that they will probably go to court.

I don't think that comment means CRB ruled in Alpine favor in any way. Maybe they will, but I doubt it. Otmar is giving us an excuse why they want to go to court.
I don't know if it is or if it isn't, or it has more veracity than other sources we are aware of, so I feel I have to look at it with the same weight as other "news reporting".

But if the license is with Alpine then simply suing Piastri for Breach of contract won't allow him to drive the Mclaren next year, it means that Mclaren would possibly have to pay for that transfer.

This is quite different to how it has been reported in the past and there is nothing to suggest he is wrong at this point. In fact the reporting in general seems to agree that the CRB did say that both contracts are correct.

Very few people really know what the devil is happening here, I'm just really surprised at this turn of events as the odd little twists do not stop coming.
Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

geogate
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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I really can't see Mclaren stumping up $21M to get Ricciardo out though, so i agree there is likely a lot more backstory that we are not aware of

Ground Effect
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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geogate wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:32 pm
I really can't see Mclaren stumping up $21M to get Ricciardo out though, so i agree there is likely a lot more backstory that we are not aware of
Too many people (journos) coming up with different stories. You can't help but think some are making things up! Peter Windsor even came up with a potentially higher figure. You'd imagine Daniel's contract would include performance bonuses etc. Unfortunately, the performance hasn't been consistent enough, so this could impact his settlement. Whatever the case is, McLaren will weigh the pros and cons, it's obvious this hasn't worked out as planned. Red Bull wouldn't be more patient than McLaren has been.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

FittingMechanics
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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geogate wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:32 pm
I really can't see Mclaren stumping up $21M to get Ricciardo out though, so i agree there is likely a lot more backstory that we are not aware of
Why not? Piastri will not be that expensive so you are not really losing a lot. If you keep Ricciardo you still need to pay him for 2023 (21M or so). Only difference will be Piastri's wage - let's say a million or two at most.

But if you take into account that Piastri has a big upside, he could be next Hamilton, the cost is insignificant. Especially if Ricciardo continues to be noticeably slower than Norris.

Nikola89
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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FittingMechanics wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:49 am
geogate wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:32 pm
I really can't see Mclaren stumping up $21M to get Ricciardo out though, so i agree there is likely a lot more backstory that we are not aware of
Why not? Piastri will not be that expensive so you are not really losing a lot. If you keep Ricciardo you still need to pay him for 2023 (21M or so). Only difference will be Piastri's wage - let's say a million or two at most.

But if you take into account that Piastri has a big upside, he could be next Hamilton, the cost is insignificant. Especially if Ricciardo continues to be noticeably slower than Norris.
I agree, but you also have to take in consideration how much money McLaren is getting because of Ricciardo "off track", through various commercials, merch...etc., so imho I don't think that that calculation is that simple.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Do we know how things would stand if they wanted to use Dan as an ambassador, or in a different series?
In all probability he has some sort of stipulation that he is 'driving the Mclaren F1 car' but this could involve lots of things, as could driving in indy or endurance.

Dan may not like it, but if some satisfactory arrangement could be achieved, he may see it as a way of trying another area.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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proteus
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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FittingMechanics wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:49 am
geogate wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:32 pm
I really can't see Mclaren stumping up $21M to get Ricciardo out though, so i agree there is likely a lot more backstory that we are not aware of
Why not? Piastri will not be that expensive so you are not really losing a lot. If you keep Ricciardo you still need to pay him for 2023 (21M or so). Only difference will be Piastri's wage - let's say a million or two at most.

But if you take into account that Piastri has a big upside, he could be next Hamilton, the cost is insignificant. Especially if Ricciardo continues to be noticeably slower than Norris.
He could be, on the other hand he could be a complete bust. Mclaren also is not what it used to be, it is in good place in terms of sponsors, but behind in facilities and without a factory engine partner and title sponsor willing to pump in hundreds of millions into the team. Not to mention the company as a whole is still in huge debt. If they dont skyrocket into the top, they can only be an incubator for Piastri (if he prooves to be good), until one of top 3 teams expresses their desire to take him.
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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proteus wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:37 pm
and title sponsor willing to pump in hundreds of millions into the team.
McLaren's title sponsor British American Tobacco is within the same range as other midfield title sponsors like BWT, Orlen or Cognizant as far as I know. It is only expected that McLaren cannot secure a sponsorship at the level of Oracle at Red Bull Racing (where most of the $100m is contra, technical support, anyway).

mwillems
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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proteus wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:37 pm
FittingMechanics wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:49 am
geogate wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:32 pm
I really can't see Mclaren stumping up $21M to get Ricciardo out though, so i agree there is likely a lot more backstory that we are not aware of
Why not? Piastri will not be that expensive so you are not really losing a lot. If you keep Ricciardo you still need to pay him for 2023 (21M or so). Only difference will be Piastri's wage - let's say a million or two at most.

But if you take into account that Piastri has a big upside, he could be next Hamilton, the cost is insignificant. Especially if Ricciardo continues to be noticeably slower than Norris.
He could be, on the other hand he could be a complete bust. Mclaren also is not what it used to be, it is in good place in terms of sponsors, but behind in facilities and without a factory engine partner and title sponsor willing to pump in hundreds of millions into the team. Not to mention the company as a whole is still in huge debt. If they dont skyrocket into the top, they can only be an incubator for Piastri (if he prooves to be good), until one of top 3 teams expresses their desire to take him.
I don't think factory engine partnerships are that important under these regs and I think the budget cap has made redundant the issue of teams pouring in millions. We have much more money coming in than the budget cap allows us to spend. Apart from that, as well as BAT we also have Google with very prominent advertising on the wheels, so I'm not concerned about our rate card anyway.

Lando will be in his 5th year with us next year and the team has been largely on an upward trajectory and at this point he hasn't been poached.

The wind tunnel is not perfect but in 12 months time we will be using our own on-prem tunnel to improve the '23 car.

There's no reason to believe we don't have the platform to do the job, after the middle of next year the onus is on the People (Engineers, designers and drivers alike) to show their top form, there will be not much else stopping the team from reaching the top. That is why we need the right drivers in place and we need to be ruthless to get where we need to go.
Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

F1since1980
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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One thing I think we can agree with is the fact that Mclaren has basically dictated to Renault and Alpine its driver line up since 2020... Getting Daniel - even before he started his second year with them, possibly getting Oscar and possibly giving Daniel back to Alpine! All with the help of AM.
Zak has been treating them like Mclaren's "Junior Team" and calling the shots on who drives for who... :lol: I would not even be surprised if he finds a way for Alpine to pay for Daniel out of desperation #-o leaving him laughing all the way to the bank.

That's gotta sting in more ways than one to a full factory backed team, they really look like total amateurs. Pretty remarkable maneuvering by Zak.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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F1since1980 wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:33 pm
One thing I think we can agree with is the fact that Mclaren has basically dictated to Renault and Alpine its driver line up since 2020... Getting Daniel - even before he started his second year with them, possibly getting Oscar and possibly giving Daniel back to Alpine! All with the help of AM.
Zak has been treating them like Mclaren's "Junior Team" and calling the shots on who drives for who... :lol: I would not even be surprised if he finds a way for Alpine to pay for Daniel out of desperation #-o leaving him laughing all the way to the bank.

That's gotta sting in more ways than one to a full factory backed team, they really look like total amateurs. Pretty remarkable maneuvering by Zak.
Well said :lol:

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djos
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Wil992 wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:19 pm
djos wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:38 pm
Ben1980 wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:24 pm



Maybe I'm confused, but you seem to be basing Lando saying the cars are completely different and need a different driving style with saying the car is the same as before?
FFS, did you read what Lando said?
like holding the brake in some sorts of corners that you don't feel like you want to hold the brake in, and then doing the opposite in other corners.

"It's not like an obvious thing on how to drive the car in every corner."
It’s clear, the car handling is not consistent from corner type to corner type and doesn’t respond that way a driver would expect a normal race car to behave.
You’re backing up your point by taking half a sentence.

The quote you have here, the full sentence is.

“ Last year, I would say that we had more of that, and then it's not an easy thing to adapt to that, like holding the brake in some sorts of corners”..

You’ve removed the words “last year” from the sentence, to make it seem like this car is what he’s talking about, when clearly it isn’t.
I was merely truncating the paragraph for brevities sake!

Anyway, Daniel has also confirmed there are many carry over traits:

https://apple.news/AxL0lWGbdQOOExcagYyJ5qw
He explained to Motorsport.com: “The regulations make the car feel different, but the DNA of the car is still very similar.

“Some of the things from last year which I struggled with, they are still in this car. It’s something I think we are starting to understand better what it is.

“Because obviously I tried to describe it, but to really understand, is it aero, is it is geometry, like… you know what I mean?
“We are starting to understand better what it is, and Lando also does complain about it. I think he’s just used to it.”

However, the Aussie’s attempts to get on top of the problems haven’t been helped by what he says are “new” problems emerging.

“Some of the, let’s call it struggles or difficulties, are a carry over – and then there might be a few new things where you’re like, damn, okay!” he explained.

“It kind of just comes down to the feel. It’s probably still hard to get a read, I guess, and to really build consistency in a race sometimes. My lap time variation might be quite big, and that’s normally like uncharacteristic.

“That kind of highlights where I’ll get caught off or something, I’m like, ‘oh ---, I didn’t expect the car to do that in that corner.’ It’s still just a little bit tricky to read I guess, going on a simple term.

“That’s where it can build some frustration, like, ‘why did I lock up then? I didn’t do anything to provoke that, so why the hell did that just happen!’ Just stuff like that.”
Mclaren need to fix their car, sure Lando is getting decent results, but it’s still a car with fundamental issues and will never be WDC/WCC material until they do.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Ben1980
Ben1980
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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The car isn't a title challenger, but it's not a terrible car. I don't think there is anything to indicate fundamental issues.

You'll quite easily find 5 teams who wish their car had these fundamental issues.

The car is fine. No more no less. Any perceived carry overs are likely how the new development rules are set into the cars.

Ground Effect
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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I think the perception of the McLaren car's behaviour is being exaggerated or misrepresented by a lot of people. At the end of the day, it's about extracting performance, which on driver is doing better than the other. We don't hear folks labelling the Red Bull difficult to drive, even though Gasly flopped in it, went back to STR and got a podium. Albon got smashed by Max, took a year out and looks the bees knees in a less capable car. Lando complains but gets performance, Carlos complained, got performance. Daniel gets performance every now and then, but the inconsistency is the issue. The points difference is an issue, the gap to Lando is an issue. You'd expect a driver of his experience to adapt and get something consistent out of the car, even if he's not as quick as Lando.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

JPower
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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djos wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:24 pm


Mclaren need to fix their car, sure Lando is getting decent results, but it’s still a car with fundamental issues and will never be WDC/WCC material until they do.
You act like other cars don't have issues either. Both Ferrari and Red Bull drivers have complained about their cars at points during the year, despite their speed. Just because everyone isn't jumping up and down making a big deal of it, doesn't mean other drivers don't like certain characteristics of their cars as well.

Ben1980 wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:40 pm
The car isn't a title challenger, but it's not a terrible car. I don't think there is anything to indicate fundamental issues.

You'll quite easily find 5 teams who wish their car had these fundamental issues.

The car is fine. No more no less. Any perceived carry overs are likely how the new development rules are set into the cars.
Agreed on all points.