2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Just_a_fan]

PU wise I think its just as much on par with everyone else, within a very small percentage 1 or 2%. Williams manage to get the good top speeds in the speed traps so would show its not the PU thats struggling.

Any car that's lacking in downforce will tend to be fast in a straight line. Minardi were often near the top of the speed charts , too, but not for any reasons other than a lack of downforce (and hence drag).

[Big Tea]

I dont think Merc have 'that' bad of a car. Its just one of those one of those, that are a bit like a petulant child. I think its more the aero concept that is costing them vastly on the higher speed sections of track, which is probably down to the wake hitting the rear tyres, rather than going around them.

Maybe the single mistake they made with this years car was the zero pod concept - I know James Allison did touch on one of those pivotal directions they chose when designing the car. Theres a decent chance that it was that.

Suspension wise I think they arent bad as they have got on top of that a LOT since Spa when the directive come out and probably a couple races prior when the car was much more less bouncy.

Of course, IF Mercedes do change their concept, just how much can they carry over from this season towards next. I imagine there will be things like airflow across the beam wings will be much more different between the 2 concepts of car, and probably even the airflow around the inner of the rear wheel and how the air is pushed outwards around the wheel/tyre aswell. Floor wise they might not need to make massive changes. If they have found the floor to be at fault - then I presume there could still be a small amount of budget to try and sort it for this season (Ferrari have brought new floors to Japan which is quite late on in the season.) the only other area for change is suspension wise, but as I said before, they seem to be on top of that now.

So it can only be one of those 3 areas, Side pods (or zeropods), floor or suspension. I cant think of any area off the top of my head that could cause them such a headache.

PU wise I think its just as much on par with everyone else, within a very small percentage 1 or 2%. Williams manage to get the good top speeds in the speed traps so would show its not the PU thats struggling.

I said earlier, I think their 'problem' that needs fixing is suspension. I do not mean the proposing, or so much the cornering, but the way it transitions and how it handles riding kerbs and keeping composure into putting the power down cleanly before the car does a 'reshuffle'. It was worse than it is now, it seems to have stopped the instant snap it had, but comparing to the Ferrari let alone the Red Bull it looks unsettled. If this is hand in hand with bad tyre control I don't know, maybe they are the same problem from opposite ends?

[mendis]

There are just too many issues with the team. We recently heard them saying they have identified the fundamental error in their design, which they claim they have fixed for next year. It remains to be seen if that is for real or another PR management of their poor performance like that if this year.

They also spoke about correlation issues, right from the beginning and we haven't heard if that was fixed. They brought big upgrades, like the one in Spain on which they were betting big, which didn't exactly deliver what they hoped for. Even if it did, the challenge is, teams like Red Bull kept moving equally fast in development, making the progress look stagnant. There is no guarantee that even if Mercedes brings a second worth of performance next year, it would be enough if Red Bull is progressing at an equal level. Ferrari develops the car extremely well over the winter, while they go through misadventures midseason.

IMHO their PU is undoubtedly behind Honda and Ferrari. It limits their ability to bolt a great deal of aero downforce. They need to be extremely frugal on drag as they cannot afford even the levels what they have currently, while adding more downforce for new car. Double whammy.

[zibby43]

I dont think Merc have 'that' bad of a car. Its just one of those one of those, that are a bit like a petulant child. I think its more the aero concept that is costing them vastly on the higher speed sections of track, which is probably down to the wake hitting the rear tyres, rather than going around them.

Maybe the single mistake they made with this years car was the zero pod concept - I know James Allison did touch on one of those pivotal directions they chose when designing the car. Theres a decent chance that it was that.

Suspension wise I think they arent bad as they have got on top of that a LOT since Spa when the directive come out and probably a couple races prior when the car was much more less bouncy.

Of course, IF Mercedes do change their concept, just how much can they carry over from this season towards next. I imagine there will be things like airflow across the beam wings will be much more different between the 2 concepts of car, and probably even the airflow around the inner of the rear wheel and how the air is pushed outwards around the wheel/tyre aswell. Floor wise they might not need to make massive changes. If they have found the floor to be at fault - then I presume there could still be a small amount of budget to try and sort it for this season (Ferrari have brought new floors to Japan which is quite late on in the season.) the only other area for change is suspension wise, but as I said before, they seem to be on top of that now.

So it can only be one of those 3 areas, Side pods (or zeropods), floor or suspension. I cant think of any area off the top of my head that could cause them such a headache.

PU wise I think its just as much on par with everyone else, within a very small percentage 1 or 2%. Williams manage to get the good top speeds in the speed traps so would show its not the PU thats struggling.

We don’t have to guess anymore as to why the car isn’t performing. Mike Elliott, Toto, and others have spelled it out for everyone in broad strokes.

In a nutshell, they thought the zero pod route was going to be a huge trick/advantage they could take advantage of under the regs. They designed the entire car around the concept - packaging, floor, diffuser, suspension kinematics, etc.

It was designed to run slammed to the ground to maximize the floor surface area. Really similar to past Merc concepts in terms of boosting floor performance by lengthening wheelbase/shrinking packaging.

The one thing they didn’t account for? Porpoising. And there’s no one variable on the car that they could change to fix it. It’s the concept itself. Not just the side pod bodywork.

All they’ve been able to do this year is find a very narrow setup window, and make some slight improvements all around the car to lessen the porpoising at the cost of chasing pure performance.

[chrisc90]

I dont think Merc have 'that' bad of a car. Its just one of those one of those, that are a bit like a petulant child. I think its more the aero concept that is costing them vastly on the higher speed sections of track, which is probably down to the wake hitting the rear tyres, rather than going around them.

Maybe the single mistake they made with this years car was the zero pod concept - I know James Allison did touch on one of those pivotal directions they chose when designing the car. Theres a decent chance that it was that.

Suspension wise I think they arent bad as they have got on top of that a LOT since Spa when the directive come out and probably a couple races prior when the car was much more less bouncy.

Of course, IF Mercedes do change their concept, just how much can they carry over from this season towards next. I imagine there will be things like airflow across the beam wings will be much more different between the 2 concepts of car, and probably even the airflow around the inner of the rear wheel and how the air is pushed outwards around the wheel/tyre aswell. Floor wise they might not need to make massive changes. If they have found the floor to be at fault - then I presume there could still be a small amount of budget to try and sort it for this season (Ferrari have brought new floors to Japan which is quite late on in the season.) the only other area for change is suspension wise, but as I said before, they seem to be on top of that now.

So it can only be one of those 3 areas, Side pods (or zeropods), floor or suspension. I cant think of any area off the top of my head that could cause them such a headache.

PU wise I think its just as much on par with everyone else, within a very small percentage 1 or 2%. Williams manage to get the good top speeds in the speed traps so would show its not the PU thats struggling.

We don’t have to guess anymore as to why the car isn’t performing. Mike Elliott, Toto, and others have spelled it out for everyone in broad strokes.

In a nutshell, they thought the zero pod route was going to be a huge trick/advantage they could take advantage of under the regs. They designed the entire car around the concept - packaging, floor, diffuser, suspension kinematics, etc.

It was designed to run slammed to the ground to maximize the floor surface area. Really similar to past Merc concepts in terms of boosting floor performance by lengthening wheelbase/shrinking packaging.

The one thing they didn’t account for? Porpoising. And there’s no one variable on the car that they could change to fix it. It’s the concept itself. Not just the side pod bodywork.

All they’ve been able to do this year is find a very narrow setup window, and make some slight improvements all around the car to lessen the porpoising at the cost of chasing pure performance.

Ultimately I think that is the top and bottom of it.

I guess it will still come at some great cost to move things such as radiators/ intercoolers etc etc into a more conventional side pod design. I think we will see a heavily undercut RB style sidepod come next year. Its the way a lot of the teams have gone down when such larger aero changes have been used. With the exception of Haas as I think there is a little bit of gamesmanship going on there with ferrari to roll out with 2 near identical scalloped sidepod in their overall shape.

[zibby43]

I dont think Merc have 'that' bad of a car. Its just one of those one of those, that are a bit like a petulant child. I think its more the aero concept that is costing them vastly on the higher speed sections of track, which is probably down to the wake hitting the rear tyres, rather than going around them.

Maybe the single mistake they made with this years car was the zero pod concept - I know James Allison did touch on one of those pivotal directions they chose when designing the car. Theres a decent chance that it was that.

Suspension wise I think they arent bad as they have got on top of that a LOT since Spa when the directive come out and probably a couple races prior when the car was much more less bouncy.

Of course, IF Mercedes do change their concept, just how much can they carry over from this season towards next. I imagine there will be things like airflow across the beam wings will be much more different between the 2 concepts of car, and probably even the airflow around the inner of the rear wheel and how the air is pushed outwards around the wheel/tyre aswell. Floor wise they might not need to make massive changes. If they have found the floor to be at fault - then I presume there could still be a small amount of budget to try and sort it for this season (Ferrari have brought new floors to Japan which is quite late on in the season.) the only other area for change is suspension wise, but as I said before, they seem to be on top of that now.

So it can only be one of those 3 areas, Side pods (or zeropods), floor or suspension. I cant think of any area off the top of my head that could cause them such a headache.

PU wise I think its just as much on par with everyone else, within a very small percentage 1 or 2%. Williams manage to get the good top speeds in the speed traps so would show its not the PU thats struggling.

We don’t have to guess anymore as to why the car isn’t performing. Mike Elliott, Toto, and others have spelled it out for everyone in broad strokes.

In a nutshell, they thought the zero pod route was going to be a huge trick/advantage they could take advantage of under the regs. They designed the entire car around the concept - packaging, floor, diffuser, suspension kinematics, etc.

It was designed to run slammed to the ground to maximize the floor surface area. Really similar to past Merc concepts in terms of boosting floor performance by lengthening wheelbase/shrinking packaging.

The one thing they didn’t account for? Porpoising. And there’s no one variable on the car that they could change to fix it. It’s the concept itself. Not just the side pod bodywork.

All they’ve been able to do this year is find a very narrow setup window, and make some slight improvements all around the car to lessen the porpoising at the cost of chasing pure performance.

Ultimately I think that is the top and bottom of it.

I guess it will still come at some great cost to move things such as radiators/ intercoolers etc etc into a more conventional side pod design. I think we will see a heavily undercut RB style sidepod come next year. Its the way a lot of the teams have gone down when such larger aero changes have been used. With the exception of Haas as I think there is a little bit of gamesmanship going on there with ferrari to roll out with 2 near identical scalloped sidepod in their overall shape.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe they said they could’ve slapped RB-style side pods on this year to work with the internal architecture.

The issue won’t be re-arranging, IMO. They’re basically starting from scratch in terms of floor/diffuser/suspension.

They will have also lost any performance required to make the zero pod concept work, when it wasn’t needed to have a successful car in this reg. set.

[TimW]

I would think it was costly to shrink down the coolers to fit them in the zeropod concept. Going back to a much larger sidepod must be easy, the engineers can just choose where to place their tiny coolers.

[zibby43]

I would think it was costly to shrink down the coolers to fit them in the zeropod concept. Going back to a much larger sidepod must be easy, the engineers can just choose where to place their tiny coolers.

Yep. My thoughts as well.

[chrisc90]

I guess it depends what the cooling is like. They probably had some idea from the pre-season testing in regards to temperatures. Of course moving to a larger cooler in the side pods is a pretty easy change to implement given its just a radiator and a hose connecting it to the PU.

Suspension wise - probably dont need to make a massive amount of changes, unless you mean the aero covers over link arms etc.

The key thing come next year will be whether starting with a 'fresh' concept will start them off on the back foot. We already know there is floor changes in terms of height to address, which is probably not what Mercedes were wanting when TD039 come out as from then on we have seen their floor running super low to the floor on the edges. Other teams might only have to make very minor changes to their floors as they could well be already be above this years minimum height (for example the RB with the typical rake setup they have).

Heres hoping for a 3 way title fight as this season you've had a pretty decent gap between each team at the top.

[SuperCNJ]

From what Merc has said, it seems to me that they don't believe their problems lie with the zero pods. It seems the most likely culprit is the floor concept which they couldn't change this season, perhaps because it would entail repackaging and moving things around which would be too expensive with the cost cap. I suspect they will keep the zero pods or at least an evolution of it next year, rather than ditching it for a more conventional design. That would be great news for me as I personally love the current design despite its flaws.

[mendis]

What’s the need for the freeze now?

Cutting costs. V8s went through that. Infact, V6 hybrids enjoyed the longest tenure of development.

Is this a blame game from Mercedes fan to deflect responsibility away from Mercedes for not having done a good enough job? When the freeze was agreed in 2020/21, Mercedes was still a superior power unit. It was in 2021 too. Where did they drop the ball?

[PlatinumZealot]

Anyone else notice that George likes to play the blame game? I get the sense that the team are get slightly annoyed by his comments.

[Zynerji]

Anyone else notice that George likes to play the blame game? I get the sense that the team are get slightly annoyed by his comments.

I think George is feeling the pain of getting himself all daydream-grandeured up as a WDC challenger this year only to realize they are only the third best team. It's a weird form of self-entitlement that is common in posers.

[101FlyingDutchman]

I can’t quite make sense of what George is saying. He seems more occupied with the optics and stuff off track then just being a racer and getting on with it. Since joining from Williams he does seem to carry that weird form of self entitlement and it’s grating. So far he really hasn’t stood out on track to behave/talk the way he does.
And I was rooting for the guy and massively pleased for him when he got the full works drive.

[astracrazy]

Anyone else notice that George likes to play the blame game? I get the sense that the team are get slightly annoyed by his comments.

The guys arrogance seems to have grown over the year, thats for sure.