2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Big Tea
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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De Jokke wrote:
Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:25 am
If the W14 is also another dog, then Merc has started the road to downfall (loosing key personnel to rbr, w13, signing Mick,...).

ps: I wonder what will happen to Elliot if W14 turns out to be a dud.
If things get this bad I see them buying another team and developing there. Sort of like RBR or Hass and Ferrari, but if they are not current, there will be no limitations on testing as long as the parts are not on 'this years' car (Am I correct here???)
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

jordanb
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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De Jokke wrote:
Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:25 am
If the W14 is also another dog, then Merc has started the road to downfall (loosing key personnel to rbr, w13, signing Mick,...).

ps: I wonder what will happen to Elliot if W14 turns out to be a dud.
Is Mick hired to develop the W14?

AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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What has Mick to do with it?

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AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Helmut Marko when pressed on who he sees as the challenge for next season:
If you fear more next year: Mercedes or Ferrari?

Marko: Definitely Mercedes. They are, as we said at the beginning, the more stable force. And they have Hamilton. Even if it may have gone down this year. It's a very special number. In between, he has repeatedly flashed with his lap times that he is a top man. This is simply the much stronger package than Ferrari.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -red-bull/

mstar
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Something tells me the sidepods zero or normal isn't going to make any difference. The whole concept is what needs to change and work together. The ridiculous ride quality and floor is a obvious area. But for the god of me get rid of the drag!! the slow speed on straights hindered a lot of the performance laptime. I will probably say as they invested and in the cooling aspect so much in zero pods it will be kept for next season (i hope im wrong), but most importantly they need a car which has a wide set-up window.

djones
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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For once I actually agree with Marko.

In terms of the W14 I reckon it will look very similar and have the same side pods. But under the floor, supporting components and suspension will be where all the work has gone with an aim to work is a much wider set of conditions and bumps etc.

jordanb
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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djones wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:21 pm
For once I actually agree with Marko.

In terms of the W14 I reckon it will look very similar and have the same side pods. But under the floor, supporting components and suspension will be where all the work has gone with an aim to work is a much wider set of conditions and bumps etc.
As they claimed all year long, the car was suffering from drag which was why they were slower through straights. If they retain the same aero philosophy with the same side pods, how are they going to address the drag problem? If anyone claims, it's possible with the same exact aero philosophy, then why couldn't they get rid of it with W13 itself?

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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jordanb wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2022 10:24 am
djones wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:21 pm
For once I actually agree with Marko.

In terms of the W14 I reckon it will look very similar and have the same side pods. But under the floor, supporting components and suspension will be where all the work has gone with an aim to work is a much wider set of conditions and bumps etc.
As they claimed all year long, the car was suffering from drag which was why they were slower through straights. If they retain the same aero philosophy with the same side pods, how are they going to address the drag problem? If anyone claims, it's possible with the same exact aero philosophy, then why couldn't they get rid of it with W13 itself?
I agree with you. They need to make sure their car is fast(er) in a straight line. That will then give them at least some chance of being able to attack in corners after a moderately long straight section. A perfect example of that is the Brazil race between the 2 drivers. One was faster in the twistier section, but overtaking was hard, however the other driver then had the edge on the straights which reset that cornering advantage back to zero. Its also important to note tyre temp and deg aswell, a car will be using the tyres considerably more through the corners than a car down the straight. Just the faster car in a straight line needs to protect the tyres more if they have a little less grip and slide around.

Realistically, I cant see any suspension or floor changes helping massively to close nearly half a second on race pace to the top team(s). We seen the W13 was quick in locations with less air density thus making the drag 'penalty' less, allowing them to be faster - and they were competitive. Personally I feel that alone shows that drag is the issue with the concept. I dont believe fully in the cars braking performance being unpredictable and I also think that the cars being able to ride the kerbs is the same for all cars on the grid. The ground effect philosophy of cars doesn't want the car to be unsettled or lifted half up over kerbs, it wants the air to flow under the floor and pull the car to the ground to give the grip.
That's explained in this video from roughly 1mins 45 (although the full video is a good watch)


If your over the kerbs you will lose that effect under the floor.

If it was as easy as bolting some fresh engine covers on, or tweaking a bit of bodywork to angle the air more outwards, we absolutely would have seen Mercedes bring upgrades to stop/reduce the drag on their car. Mercedes knew that they couldn't solve that problem giving the packaging etc of their car which would need a re-design.

However, lets think back to pre-season testing or testing weekend 1 where the Merc actually had side pods. I wonder why they couldn't modify that design to work - unless there is rule/regulations about a second set of bodywork under the outer bodywork, or air was passing between the outer skin and inner skin and also the ducting for cooling. Who knows. We seen plenty of teams bring multiple engine covers through the season, so I dont think that the idea was ever off the table for Mercedes.

We know that some of the outwashing methods that Mercedes brought through the season are banned for next year - the front wing with the slotted end plate - which was solely there to move air away from the tyre area and to the outside of the car - again saying Mercedes have the issue with drag and air hitting the tyre frontal areas. I did look back at the W13 car thread (pages 190 onwards when they brought the outwashing front wing) to see if there was a speculated 'time' that that wing would give them - however I couldn't see anything.

I really do think we will see a W14 with sidepods next year - if we dont, then I think it could well be another season of bother for Mercedes, especially given the 2023 aero changes.
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

Henk_v
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Confronted with the ban, merc repeatedly stated it was no biggie, the effect was minor. But well, how can they say anything else.

It is hard to see that a slot of a few cm wide can have any significant effect on the aero concept. Other teams have massive outwashing shapes in their sidepods and complain they can't get the outwash they'd like to see.

If merceded cant get the front tire wake where they want is, the question is, where does it go then? Over the diffuser?

jordanb
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2022 1:32 pm
I really do think we will see a W14 with sidepods next year - if we dont, then I think it could well be another season of bother for Mercedes, especially given the 2023 aero changes.
It's an interesting dilemma I see there. If they change aero philosophy, it takes them back in time as they have to then understand how the new design would perform, then go with optimising over a period to bring performance. Going with a new concept means large amount of R&D time and effort in wind tunnel and CFD to find the ideal spot of a new design. The 2023 floor changes are going to be a challenge as cars set to lose downforce. If these two things tangle, then there would more head scratching.

If they go with the current one, they have to contend with the drag issue and with no additional power coming like previous years, continuing with a draggy concept would be risky. With 2023 changes to floor taking away downforce, they would be left with a car with less downforce and draggy. I can't wait to see what they would come up with.

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Agree, id probably say it puts them back about 3/4 of a season, given there would be some concepts and theories that would be transferrable. Not to mention that the floor edge flexing is also going to be looked at.
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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2022 Season Review.

No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

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Stu
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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A page and a half of non-team related off-topicness has now been deleted. This is not the the thread for ‘my driver/your driver’ arguments (there will be no winners!).
Come to think of it, this is not the forum for it, either.

Yes, you’re all bored and cannot wait for launch season, but that is no excuse.

Keep it on topic!!
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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wogx
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Maybe it's time to create the 2023 thread to talk about W14 and coming season?

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Stu
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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There is a W14 speculation thread, a new team thread will be created at around car launch time.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.