2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:55 pm
politburo wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:13 pm
Had a random thought just now, Verstappen will go down as the greatest F1 driver of all time.

He is only 24 but has 28 wins in 6 years, which is more than Rosberg, Button, Raikonnen, Hakkinen, and Stewart amongst many. Has only 4 wins less than Alonso, 25 away from Vettel. Of course, Lewis and Michael are the GOAT benchmark but at this current rate in these new regs, if RedBull continues like this which is almost certain they will, it will allow him to win 10-13 races a year and will get him to Schumacher in ~7 years, he'll be 31. And add onto that he beat an in-prime Hamilton last year and an all-time qualifier like Leclerc this year it bolsters his case. But his lack of Qualifying dominance compared to Vettel, Schumi and Hamilton may be the main detriment.
Of course he will be. You only have to look at some of the things Max has done in his time in F1 at his age to realise he's on a record breaking run/challenge.
He has the best chance to do so - he started ridiculously young and these days the potential career is in to the driver's 40s. Only needs cars at /near the front to have a great chance of being the all time champ in terms of wins/poles/titles. Starting at 17 when the likes of Schumacher and Hamilton started at 22 gives him a huge chance to top the various totals. At 24 he's already nearly a quarter of the way to the current wins record.

Of course, there are no certainties in F1 - next year Red Bull might be the third best car (yeah, unlikely but we won't know until we get there). Or some other circumstance changes and he decides to go early - having children has been known to change the direction of many men.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:24 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:55 pm
politburo wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:13 pm
Had a random thought just now, Verstappen will go down as the greatest F1 driver of all time.

He is only 24 but has 28 wins in 6 years, which is more than Rosberg, Button, Raikonnen, Hakkinen, and Stewart amongst many. Has only 4 wins less than Alonso, 25 away from Vettel. Of course, Lewis and Michael are the GOAT benchmark but at this current rate in these new regs, if RedBull continues like this which is almost certain they will, it will allow him to win 10-13 races a year and will get him to Schumacher in ~7 years, he'll be 31. And add onto that he beat an in-prime Hamilton last year and an all-time qualifier like Leclerc this year it bolsters his case. But his lack of Qualifying dominance compared to Vettel, Schumi and Hamilton may be the main detriment.
Of course he will be. You only have to look at some of the things Max has done in his time in F1 at his age to realise he's on a record breaking run/challenge.
He has the best chance to do so - he started ridiculously young and these days the potential career is in to the driver's 40s. Only needs cars at /near the front to have a great chance of being the all time champ in terms of wins/poles/titles. Starting at 17 when the likes of Schumacher and Hamilton started at 22 gives him a huge chance to top the various totals. At 24 he's already nearly a quarter of the way to the current wins record.

Of course, there are no certainties in F1 - next year Red Bull might be the third best car (yeah, unlikely but we won't know until we get there). Or some other circumstance changes and he decides to go early - having children has been known to change the direction of many men.
Fully agreed. From various media photos etc, I think Max is a down to earth man who understands the family values and is a great character around children. When/if Max has kids, whether he will change, I dont think anyone knows, but what has he really got to prove by going racing anymore. He has his WDC, most likely a 2nd one this year. He's on mighty fine money, enough for likes of me and you to retire with just from 1 season alone so I guess its down to the pure enjoyment of doing it. I do think he will continue though.
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:57 pm
politburo wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:13 pm
Had a random thought just now, Verstappen will go down as the greatest F1 driver of all time.

He is only 24 but has 28 wins in 6 years, which is more than Rosberg, Button, Raikonnen, Hakkinen, and Stewart amongst many. Has only 4 wins less than Alonso, 25 away from Vettel. Of course, Lewis and Michael are the GOAT benchmark but at this current rate in these new regs, if RedBull continues like this which is almost certain they will, it will allow him to win 10-13 races a year and will get him to Schumacher in ~7 years, he'll be 31. And add onto that he beat an in-prime Hamilton last year and an all-time qualifier like Leclerc this year it bolsters his case. But his lack of Qualifying dominance compared to Vettel, Schumi and Hamilton may be the main detriment.
In the days of Stewart there were only 6 - 9 GP per year. You cannot compare on pure numbers, just like poles and wins for Hamilton
That's why percentage stats are helpful.

Fangio only had 52 races but he won 24 of them for a table topping win rate of over 46%. Max has had almost three times as many races as Fangio, Lewis has had nearly six times as many. That's why comparing totals is always going to skew any comparison towards modern drivers. The media don't help because they love the simple "big number is best" narrative. Hamilton is touted as being "the most successful F1 driver ever" but I would contend that should go to Fangio - he won more of the races he entered than any driver in history and by a large margin 12% ahead of Clark who is, of course, regarded as an absolute great by many. Hamilton is with Clark at 12% behind Fangio.

And then you look at poles and Fangio has over 55% of his races from pole. No other driver comes close - Clark, again, is 10% behind. Senna - a highly regarded qualifier - is 15% behind. Hamilton, with the largest total of poles, is 21% behind.

And then add in that he was a relatively old man, driving monster machines on tracks that had absolutely no safety facilities worth the name, and Fangio is hard to argue against as "the best" F1 driver. No modern driver comes close to that set of circumstances and results.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:36 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:24 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:55 pm


Of course he will be. You only have to look at some of the things Max has done in his time in F1 at his age to realise he's on a record breaking run/challenge.
He has the best chance to do so - he started ridiculously young and these days the potential career is in to the driver's 40s. Only needs cars at /near the front to have a great chance of being the all time champ in terms of wins/poles/titles. Starting at 17 when the likes of Schumacher and Hamilton started at 22 gives him a huge chance to top the various totals. At 24 he's already nearly a quarter of the way to the current wins record.

Of course, there are no certainties in F1 - next year Red Bull might be the third best car (yeah, unlikely but we won't know until we get there). Or some other circumstance changes and he decides to go early - having children has been known to change the direction of many men.
Fully agreed. From various media photos etc, I think Max is a down to earth man who understands the family values and is a great character around children. When/if Max has kids, whether he will change, I dont think anyone knows, but what has he really got to prove by going racing anymore. He has his WDC, most likely a 2nd one this year. He's on mighty fine money, enough for likes of me and you to retire with just from 1 season alone so I guess its down to the pure enjoyment of doing it. I do think he will continue though.
That's what I never understood about Seb going to AM. What's the point? What could he prove? He's got 4 titles, 53 wins, 57 poles. It was always going to be a case of driving around midfield or potentially worse as shown this year, sadly. He's got a young family, plenty of money (unless he's wasted it all on a secret gambling habit or whatever). What was he doing risking it all trundling round? I'm glad he's getting out and his family can enjoy having him at home.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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politburo wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:13 pm
Had a random thought just now, Verstappen will go down as the greatest F1 driver of all time.

He is only 24 but has 28 wins in 6 years, which is more than Rosberg, Button, Raikonnen, Hakkinen, and Stewart amongst many. Has only 4 wins less than Alonso, 25 away from Vettel. Of course, Lewis and Michael are the GOAT benchmark but at this current rate in these new regs, if RedBull continues like this which is almost certain they will, it will allow him to win 10-13 races a year and will get him to Schumacher in ~7 years, he'll be 31. And add onto that he beat an in-prime Hamilton last year and an all-time qualifier like Leclerc this year it bolsters his case. But his lack of Qualifying dominance compared to Vettel, Schumi and Hamilton may be the main detriment.
Aren't we getting ahead of ourselves? :lol: It takes a LOT going your way to win that many races and championships regardless of how good the driver is.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:43 pm
politburo wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:13 pm
Had a random thought just now, Verstappen will go down as the greatest F1 driver of all time.

He is only 24 but has 28 wins in 6 years, which is more than Rosberg, Button, Raikonnen, Hakkinen, and Stewart amongst many. Has only 4 wins less than Alonso, 25 away from Vettel. Of course, Lewis and Michael are the GOAT benchmark but at this current rate in these new regs, if RedBull continues like this which is almost certain they will, it will allow him to win 10-13 races a year and will get him to Schumacher in ~7 years, he'll be 31. And add onto that he beat an in-prime Hamilton last year and an all-time qualifier like Leclerc this year it bolsters his case. But his lack of Qualifying dominance compared to Vettel, Schumi and Hamilton may be the main detriment.
Aren't we getting ahead of ourselves? :lol: It takes a LOT going your way to win that many races and championships regardless of how good the driver is.
Exactly so. Two fewer DNFs (China 2007, Malaysia 2016) and Hamilton would have 9 titles to his name (assuming everything else played out as it did, of course). The same applies to others through the years, of course. There is a lot that has to go right before the driver's skill can finish the job and take the laurels.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Sieper
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I still feel the current drivers risk their lives, but what happened in the 50s and 60s, even the 70s was just “ridiculous”. We would never accept that anymore, and rightfully so. To excel under these circumstances indeed makes them special on another level.

Still, in all sports the level just keeps increasing and increasing. That too is true.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

Gillian
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I remember the same was said about Vettel when at Red Bull. Verstappen is one of the best of all-time imo but that alone is not enough to best the records set by Hamilton/Schumacher.

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Sieper
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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It might never happen. Max has had to wait 6 years to get a competitive car. Now he is in a car that can compete, for the second year, but who knows what has now been decided by FIA for next year. Might be right back to 3rd team.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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continuum16
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:25 pm
...but who knows what has now been decided by FIA for next year. Might be right back to 3rd team.
Maybe; but honestly I wouldn't be that afraid; for two reasons. 1) During peak blown diffuser years the FIA constantly tried to change the exhaust rules that RB had understood so well, but arguably the 2013 car designed under the most restrictive rules was best. If any team could figure it out, I still think RB could. 2) Usually the team starts a regulation cycle slightly behind (2009, 2014, 2017) but catches up at the end of the cycle (2013, 2016 closer than '14, 2021). The fact that they are already at the front bodes well for the next three years IMO.
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politburo
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:36 pm
I still feel the current drivers risk their lives, but what happened in the 50s and 60s, even the 70s was just “ridiculous”. We would never accept that anymore, and rightfully so. To excel under these circumstances indeed makes them special on another level.

Still, in all sports the level just keeps increasing and increasing. That too is true.
The 50s and 60s in particular were shocking levels of self-endangerment. I'm glad governments never banned open cockpit racing despite the many deaths as without those unfortunate events we would never have driver safety to the level where a driver can scrape gravel at ~100 km/hr upside down without getting decapitated as we all know safety-based innovations are usually iterative and based on provably unsafe innovations in the past.
"Nosotros diferimos, pero nosotros todos son iguales"

politburo
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:25 pm
It might never happen. Max has had to wait 6 years to get a competitive car. Now he is in a car that can compete, for the second year, but who knows what has now been decided by FIA for next year. Might be right back to 3rd team.
Their issue in the Mer dominance era was the gap in MGU-K/H efficiency and PU design. Renault has always been behind Merc and Ferrari to this day, and Honda only recently figured it out last year. Otherwise, the RB has always had awesome aero, chassis and suspension design due to the internal design team being led by Newey, someone so experienced and excellent that he rarely produces substandard machinery in +3 decades in the sport. For as longas the Honda PU is good Verstappen is well on his way to being the GOAT.
"Nosotros diferimos, pero nosotros todos son iguales"

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Sieper
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Very much agreed, Newey and team have always done a great job. But Max also has had to sit on the sideline for 6 years. It would be a blow if that happens again. The scare is always there but I do agree that for the remaining years of this formula it is unlikely RBR would not be there or thereabouts,
Controversy does not have a short memory.

mendis
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:25 pm
It might never happen. Max has had to wait 6 years to get a competitive car. Now he is in a car that can compete, for the second year, but who knows what has now been decided by FIA for next year. Might be right back to 3rd team.
Any chassis regulations, Red Bull appears to have strength to compete at the front. They were held back by engine power in those years where Mercedes clearly had a far superior engine to anything that Red Bull had. With the engines now frozen with Honda on par, any changes in chassis regulations shouldn't be a threat for them.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:48 pm
Very much agreed, Newey and team have always done a great job. But Max also has had to sit on the sideline for 6 years. It would be a blow if that happens again. The scare is always there but I do agree that for the remaining years of this formula it is unlikely RBR would not be there or thereabouts,
The numbers leaving the successful Merc team seem to leave them with little of the squad the brought the long term winner forth. Red Bull seem to have the established squad plus additions, so seem to be the ones with the best medium term outlook.

Everything changes, but it is going to take time for a Mercedes resurgence, if ever.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.