2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:36 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:57 pm
politburo wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:13 pm
Had a random thought just now, Verstappen will go down as the greatest F1 driver of all time.

He is only 24 but has 28 wins in 6 years, which is more than Rosberg, Button, Raikonnen, Hakkinen, and Stewart amongst many. Has only 4 wins less than Alonso, 25 away from Vettel. Of course, Lewis and Michael are the GOAT benchmark but at this current rate in these new regs, if RedBull continues like this which is almost certain they will, it will allow him to win 10-13 races a year and will get him to Schumacher in ~7 years, he'll be 31. And add onto that he beat an in-prime Hamilton last year and an all-time qualifier like Leclerc this year it bolsters his case. But his lack of Qualifying dominance compared to Vettel, Schumi and Hamilton may be the main detriment.
In the days of Stewart there were only 6 - 9 GP per year. You cannot compare on pure numbers, just like poles and wins for Hamilton
That's why percentage stats are helpful.

Fangio only had 52 races but he won 24 of them for a table topping win rate of over 46%. Max has had almost three times as many races as Fangio, Lewis has had nearly six times as many. That's why comparing totals is always going to skew any comparison towards modern drivers. The media don't help because they love the simple "big number is best" narrative. Hamilton is touted as being "the most successful F1 driver ever" but I would contend that should go to Fangio - he won more of the races he entered than any driver in history and by a large margin 12% ahead of Clark who is, of course, regarded as an absolute great by many. Hamilton is with Clark at 12% behind Fangio.

And then you look at poles and Fangio has over 55% of his races from pole. No other driver comes close - Clark, again, is 10% behind. Senna - a highly regarded qualifier - is 15% behind. Hamilton, with the largest total of poles, is 21% behind.

And then add in that he was a relatively old man, driving monster machines on tracks that had absolutely no safety facilities worth the name, and Fangio is hard to argue against as "the best" F1 driver. No modern driver comes close to that set of circumstances and results.
There is no good way to compare drivers in one season or across history. To REALLY be able to compare drivers, the cars have to be equal and they are not. So all those numbers you're reading off are really team numbers. While it might be entertaining, from a scientific perspective it's meaningless.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:21 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:36 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:57 pm


In the days of Stewart there were only 6 - 9 GP per year. You cannot compare on pure numbers, just like poles and wins for Hamilton
That's why percentage stats are helpful.

Fangio only had 52 races but he won 24 of them for a table topping win rate of over 46%. Max has had almost three times as many races as Fangio, Lewis has had nearly six times as many. That's why comparing totals is always going to skew any comparison towards modern drivers. The media don't help because they love the simple "big number is best" narrative. Hamilton is touted as being "the most successful F1 driver ever" but I would contend that should go to Fangio - he won more of the races he entered than any driver in history and by a large margin 12% ahead of Clark who is, of course, regarded as an absolute great by many. Hamilton is with Clark at 12% behind Fangio.

And then you look at poles and Fangio has over 55% of his races from pole. No other driver comes close - Clark, again, is 10% behind. Senna - a highly regarded qualifier - is 15% behind. Hamilton, with the largest total of poles, is 21% behind.

And then add in that he was a relatively old man, driving monster machines on tracks that had absolutely no safety facilities worth the name, and Fangio is hard to argue against as "the best" F1 driver. No modern driver comes close to that set of circumstances and results.
There is no good way to compare drivers in one season or across history. To REALLY be able to compare drivers, the cars have to be equal and they are not. So all those numbers you're reading off are really team numbers. While it might be entertaining, from a scientific perspective it's meaningless.
Well, yes, it's not scientific - too many variables for that - but it is a way of trying to compare drivers across the generations. It's got flaws in it - any comparison of drivers that didn't share identical machinery in identical conditions is flawed.

Bare stats tell you little. Fangio had 52 races, retired from 10. Clark had 72 starts and retired from 23. Schumacher had 306 starts and 63 retirements. Hamilton has had 301 and retired from 25. Interesting figures but they tell you nothing of the circumstances. An interesting fact is that each driver had at least one retirement free season (Hamilton has had three so far thanks to modern reliability) and each won the title in those seasons. Interesting but tells you nothing other than that they had a retirement free season.
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Sieper
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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But I think another point is also important. In every sport the level athletes compete at is ever increasing. Each generation learning from the previous. But also, their tools improving. F.e. Look now to wooden racket tennis, or even Lendl vs Chang at Roland Garros. And then the current stars. That is just an astounding difference.

And that is just one sport. Happens across the board.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:50 pm
But I think another point is also important. In every sport the level athletes compete at is ever increasing. Each generation learning from the previous. But also, their tools improving. F.e. Look now to wooden racket tennis, or even Lendl vs Chang at Roland Garros. And then the current stars. That is just an astounding difference.

And that is just one sport. Happens across the board.
The previous generation drivers had unlimited testing miles in actual F1 cars. What could be better than that? What the drivers have now is arguably lesser. Lets of "simulation" but it doesn't compare to simply being able to pound around Fiorano, or Silverstone endlessly in the car you are driving that year. If the drivers of today could pound around endlessly, Ricciardo might sort out his Mclaren issues. Schumacher might progress a bit faster and Verstappen would have been well seasoned in 2015-2016 already.

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peewon
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:29 pm
Sieper wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:50 pm
But I think another point is also important. In every sport the level athletes compete at is ever increasing. Each generation learning from the previous. But also, their tools improving. F.e. Look now to wooden racket tennis, or even Lendl vs Chang at Roland Garros. And then the current stars. That is just an astounding difference.

And that is just one sport. Happens across the board.
The previous generation drivers had unlimited testing miles in actual F1 cars. What could be better than that? What the drivers have now is arguably lesser. Lets of "simulation" but it doesn't compare to simply being able to pound around Fiorano, or Silverstone endlessly in the car you are driving that year. If the drivers of today could pound around endlessly, Ricciardo might sort out his Mclaren issues. Schumacher might progress a bit faster and Verstappen would have been well seasoned in 2015-2016 already.
If Ricciardo was driving in the 60s or 70s, based on a 12 year career, its a coin flip whether he'd still be alive or not. For that reason alone, comparisons across eras are meaningless.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:25 pm
It might never happen. Max has had to wait 6 years to get a competitive car. Now he is in a car that can compete, for the second year, but who knows what has now been decided by FIA for next year. Might be right back to 3rd team.
Max had winning cars every year since 2016.

Speaking about longevity... The Body and mind is key. If Max's lady wants to have kids next year and Max doesn't, then that little drama is going to a form of distraction. If Max wants Jos to give him space, that's another distraction. Max can simply get tired of the sport too after 12 or so years. No one knows the future.
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AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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peewon wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:11 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:29 pm
Sieper wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:50 pm
But I think another point is also important. In every sport the level athletes compete at is ever increasing. Each generation learning from the previous. But also, their tools improving. F.e. Look now to wooden racket tennis, or even Lendl vs Chang at Roland Garros. And then the current stars. That is just an astounding difference.

And that is just one sport. Happens across the board.
The previous generation drivers had unlimited testing miles in actual F1 cars. What could be better than that? What the drivers have now is arguably lesser. Lets of "simulation" but it doesn't compare to simply being able to pound around Fiorano, or Silverstone endlessly in the car you are driving that year. If the drivers of today could pound around endlessly, Ricciardo might sort out his Mclaren issues. Schumacher might progress a bit faster and Verstappen would have been well seasoned in 2015-2016 already.
If Ricciardo was driving in the 60s or 70s, based on a 12 year career, its a coin flip whether he'd still be alive or not. For that reason alone, comparisons across eras are meaningless.
I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to since I wasn't referring to the 60's or 70's. The big teams had unlimited testing with their drivers in the early 2000s, an era that a few drivers from then are still driving today. That was better preparation for a driver than any simulator.

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peewon
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:47 am
peewon wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:11 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:29 pm


The previous generation drivers had unlimited testing miles in actual F1 cars. What could be better than that? What the drivers have now is arguably lesser. Lets of "simulation" but it doesn't compare to simply being able to pound around Fiorano, or Silverstone endlessly in the car you are driving that year. If the drivers of today could pound around endlessly, Ricciardo might sort out his Mclaren issues. Schumacher might progress a bit faster and Verstappen would have been well seasoned in 2015-2016 already.
If Ricciardo was driving in the 60s or 70s, based on a 12 year career, its a coin flip whether he'd still be alive or not. For that reason alone, comparisons across eras are meaningless.
I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to since I wasn't referring to the 60's or 70's. The big teams had unlimited testing with their drivers in the early 2000s, an era that a few drivers from then are still driving today. That was better preparation for a driver than any simulator.
The point was how its another reason why it doesn't make much sense to compare across eras.

I think the gap between top drivers is much closer now. Early 2000s usually had 2-3 tier 1 drivers whereas now I'd say there's about 5-6. That's just a subjective opinion on my part.

As for unlimited testing, if we had that today then the big teams would do more and also develop their car more. So Schumacher might develop more but would be look any better in comparison to say Russell or Leclerc? Probably not.

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vorticism
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:15 am
Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:25 pm
It might never happen. Max has had to wait 6 years to get a competitive car. Now he is in a car that can compete, for the second year, but who knows what has now been decided by FIA for next year. Might be right back to 3rd team.
Max had winning cars every year since 2016.
Winning in the sense of when the Mercedes engine fails, you win a race (Malaysia), or when the Mercedes drivers crash into each other, you win a race (Spain). Those would be the two RB wins in 2016. Worked well for VES though as he got his first win in his first race with RB as the first Dutch and youngest ever race winner. A quadruple crown of sorts.

In the turbo hybrid era, there was winning, and there was the Renault engine. Choose one. Ricciardo had something like 7 DNFs end of 2018 iirc. The Renault years post 2013 were a struggle hence the sudden lack of pace after four WCC eventually leading to the Tag Heuer thing.

mendis
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:15 am
Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:25 pm
It might never happen. Max has had to wait 6 years to get a competitive car. Now he is in a car that can compete, for the second year, but who knows what has now been decided by FIA for next year. Might be right back to 3rd team.
Max had winning cars every year since 2016.

Speaking about longevity... The Body and mind is key. If Max's lady wants to have kids next year and Max doesn't, then that little drama is going to a form of distraction. If Max wants Jos to give him space, that's another distraction. Max can simply get tired of the sport too after 12 or so years. No one knows the future.
The first statement is completely misleading and I am not diving into it.

No driver quits when he has winning car at hand, other than being shoved away for various reasons like it happened to Prost in 1993 or to Damon in 1996 or the way it happened to Schumacher in 2006. Lewis kept everyone guessing about his future while clearly not in any mood to quit in the hybrid era when he could simply win everything. I don't think Max would leave either if he has championship winning cars available for however long it is. Distraction to a driver is really a myth as proven by the breakup of Nicole and Lewis in 2015, but yet, he was winning races and championships. In fact for most people, profession is a good getaway from the personal issues.

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Wouter
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:15 am
Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:25 pm
It might never happen. Max has had to wait 6 years to get a competitive car. Now he is in a car that can compete, for the second year, but who knows what has now been decided by FIA for next year. Might be right back to 3rd team.
.
Max had winning cars every year since 2016.

Speaking about longevity... The Body and mind is key. If Max's lady wants to have kids next year and Max doesn't, then that little drama is going to a form of distraction. If Max wants Jos to give him space, that's another distraction. Max can simply get tired of the sport too after 12 or so years. No one knows the future.
.
I'm not going to respond to that nonsense comment.

"The body and mind is key." Precisely! And let that now be Max's strongest quality! Max is not distracted by anything.
Especially not because of his girlfriend!
Kelly wants Max's child, but Max doesn't want that at all. That's Kelly's problem. Max doesn't mind that, so no distraction.
Max has no problem with Jos disapproving of his relationship with Kelly. Max and his father have a very strong bond, nothing comes in between, not even a distraction for Max.

Max's most important goal in life is to be the best driver. That is why he has now only had a few days (5?) holiday with his Dutch family in St Tropez, close to home and is already training hard with Bradly, who arrived in Monaco this morning.
No long vacation far away with Kelly and her daughter, but focus on the racing!

The Power of Honda!

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Wouter
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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A very nice and long interview with Helmut Marko about a lot of things.
It was published yesterday but it took place during the Hungarian GP.

Original in German : https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... k-22081402

Translated in English: https://www-motorsport--total-com.trans ... r_pto=wapp
The Power of Honda!

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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mendis wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:23 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:15 am
Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:25 pm
It might never happen. Max has had to wait 6 years to get a competitive car. Now he is in a car that can compete, for the second year, but who knows what has now been decided by FIA for next year. Might be right back to 3rd team.
Max had winning cars every year since 2016.

Speaking about longevity... The Body and mind is key. If Max's lady wants to have kids next year and Max doesn't, then that little drama is going to a form of distraction. If Max wants Jos to give him space, that's another distraction. Max can simply get tired of the sport too after 12 or so years. No one knows the future.
The first statement is completely misleading and I am not diving into it.

No driver quits when he has winning car at hand, other than being shoved away for various reasons like it happened to Prost in 1993 or to Damon in 1996 or the way it happened to Schumacher in 2006. Lewis kept everyone guessing about his future while clearly not in any mood to quit in the hybrid era when he could simply win everything. I don't think Max would leave either if he has championship winning cars available for however long it is. Distraction to a driver is really a myth as proven by the breakup of Nicole and Lewis in 2015, but yet, he was winning races and championships. In fact for most people, profession is a good getaway from the personal issues.
Roseberg quit with a winning car. Think you're taking Z's comments to literally. He's just saying, it might be unlikely but shiit happens in life.

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lio007
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:25 pm
A very nice and long interview with Helmut Marko about a lot of things.
It was published yesterday but it took place during the Hungarian GP.

Original in German : https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... k-22081402

Translated in English: https://www-motorsport--total-com.trans ... r_pto=wapp
It's always good to read bits like that!

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Wouter
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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New clue emerges for Porsche's entry into Formula 1

It is almost certain that Porsche will enter Formula 1 from 2026 onwards. The German brand itself keeps its lips sealed and does not want to confirm anything, because they first have to wait until everything regarding the engine regulations and other matters is in black and white. However, this week a new hint has emerged that it really is going to happen.

Porsche has registered a new trademark 'F1nally' for marketing and merchandise. They have done so at the German Patent and Trademark Office. The application was filed on 10 August, according to documents from the register.
.
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/125566/n ... ula-1.html
The Power of Honda!