2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
User avatar
kediown
0
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2022 2:37 pm

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Wouter wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:25 pm
Bill wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:56 pm
it is not just redbull that is quick down the straight it is also alpha tauri which dont have any fancy aero kit.fia gives data about these after quali and race so it is easy to check and make an argument.redbull have been struggling with straight line speed for many years with renault ,if they were some aero tricks to boost down straight why did they not deploy it then if likes of scarbs belief its that easy.ferrari could match red bull straight line speed in Baku and Austria but it came with reliability issues so the pu have been dialled back then to provide more sustainable performance over the entire season.what i see hear is the europeans trying to explain away Honda success after belittle them and underestimating them when they were struggling,its like when the chinese beat american to 5g race to the us china was stealing american tech they did no have.i think its about perception people have about themself than reality.if that Honda pu was a merc everybody will be falling all over themself and telling us about how great and wonderful it is like last year rocket engine that never was.
.
Your message is very hard to read for me as a non English speaker. Could you perhaps use punctuation, spaces and capitalization?
It isn't just Redbull that has a higher top speed, it is also Alpha Tauri which doesn't have a fancy aero kit (probably referring RB sidepods, [personal opinion -> they have similar concepts, so it may as well be low drag]) FIA gives data about these after qualifying and race, it is easy to check the data and make an argument. (Speedtraps I guess?)

Redbull have been struggling with top speed for many years with Renault, if there were some 'aero tricks' to boost the top speed, why didn't they use those tricks as people like Scarbs believe it's that easy to use. Ferrari could match Redbull's top speed on Baku and Austria but it came with sacrificing reliability so the PU have been turned down for more sustainable performance over the entire season. What I see and hear is that the Europeans are trying to take away Honda's success after belittling them when they were struggling back then. [No idea about the next sentence]

If that Honda PU was created by Mercedes PU, everyone would be praising and telling how great and wonderful it is as if the rocket engine they had last year never was(?)

User avatar
Wouter
91
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

kediown wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:51 pm
Wouter wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:25 pm
Bill wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:56 pm
it is not just redbull that is quick down the straight it is also alpha tauri which dont have any fancy aero kit.fia gives data about these after quali and race so it is easy to check and make an argument.redbull have been struggling with straight line speed for many years with renault ,......................................
.
Your message is very hard to read for me as a non English speaker. Could you perhaps use punctuation, spaces and capitalization?
.
It isn't just Redbull that has a higher top speed, it is also Alpha Tauri which doesn't have a fancy aero kit (probably referring RB sidepods, [personal opinion -> they have similar concepts, so it may as well be low drag]) FIA gives data about these after qualifying and race, it is easy to check the data and make an argument. (Speedtraps I guess?)

Redbull have been struggling with top speed for many years with Renault, if there were some 'aero tricks' to boost the top speed, why didn't they use those tricks as people like Scarbs believe it's that easy to use. Ferrari could match Redbull's top speed on Baku and Austria but it came with sacrificing reliability so the PU have been turned down for more sustainable performance over the entire season. What I see and hear is that the Europeans are trying to take away Honda's success after belittling them when they were struggling back then. [No idea about the next sentence]

If that Honda PU was created by Mercedes PU, everyone would be praising and telling how great and wonderful it is as if the rocket engine they had last year never was(?)
.
Thank you @kediown! 👍
The Power of Honda!

User avatar
etusch
105
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

kediown wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:51 pm
Wouter wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:25 pm
Bill wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:56 pm
it is not just redbull that is quick down the straight it is also alpha tauri which dont have any fancy aero kit.fia gives data about these after quali and race so it is easy to check and make an argument.redbull have been struggling with straight line speed for many years with renault ,if they were some aero tricks to boost down straight why did they not deploy it then if likes of scarbs belief its that easy.ferrari could match red bull straight line speed in Baku and Austria but it came with reliability issues so the pu have been dialled back then to provide more sustainable performance over the entire season.what i see hear is the europeans trying to explain away Honda success after belittle them and underestimating them when they were struggling,its like when the chinese beat american to 5g race to the us china was stealing american tech they did no have.i think its about perception people have about themself than reality.if that Honda pu was a merc everybody will be falling all over themself and telling us about how great and wonderful it is like last year rocket engine that never was.
.
Your message is very hard to read for me as a non English speaker. Could you perhaps use punctuation, spaces and capitalization?
It isn't just Redbull that has a higher top speed, it is also Alpha Tauri which doesn't have a fancy aero kit (probably referring RB sidepods, [personal opinion -> they have similar concepts, so it may as well be low drag]) FIA gives data about these after qualifying and race, it is easy to check the data and make an argument. (Speedtraps I guess?)

Redbull have been struggling with top speed for many years with Renault, if there were some 'aero tricks' to boost the top speed, why didn't they use those tricks as people like Scarbs believe it's that easy to use. Ferrari could match Redbull's top speed on Baku and Austria but it came with sacrificing reliability so the PU have been turned down for more sustainable performance over the entire season. What I see and hear is that the Europeans are trying to take away Honda's success after belittling them when they were struggling back then. [No idea about the next sentence]

If that Honda PU was created by Mercedes PU, everyone would be praising and telling how great and wonderful it is as if the rocket engine they had last year never was(?)
+1000

mendis
mendis
3
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:12 pm

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

I have a hunch that, Honda PU is far more powerful than how it is being projected. In Monza, they bolted much bigger downforce wing, yet were on top in speed trap.

Image

Red Bull is happy to hide the power as they can stay just ahead on speed trap and bolt a lot of downforce. I don't buy that they have low drag. Similarly, I don't buy that Mercedes has high drag. Their PU is just poor.

JPower
JPower
35
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:06 am

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

mendis wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:18 pm
I have a hunch that, Honda PU is far more powerful than how it is being projected. In Monza, they bolted much bigger downforce wing, yet were on top in speed trap.

Red Bull is happy to hide the power as they can stay just ahead on speed trap and bolt a lot of downforce. I don't buy that they have low drag. Similarly, I don't buy that Mercedes has high drag. Their PU is just poor.
Doesn't make any sense. I've no calculations from any journalist whether that be AMuS or others to support any of what you're alleging. Honda has the best ERS system on the grid. The Red Bull clearly has shown its combination of low drag and ability to carry electrical power without clipping has lead to a huge advantage on the top end. The Mercedes PU might be down from Red Bull/Ferrari but the Williams is plenty fast in a straight line. The W13 is a parachute in comparison.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
561
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

mendis wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:18 pm
I have a hunch that, Honda PU is far more powerful than how it is being projected. In Monza, they bolted much bigger downforce wing, yet were on top in speed trap.
I think Red Bull played an absolute blinder with the engine freeze rules - they hid the PU's true potential and have now got the benefit of the freeze. Bravo to them for that.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

User avatar
Wouter
91
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:06 pm
mendis wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:18 pm
I have a hunch that, Honda PU is far more powerful than how it is being projected. In Monza, they bolted much bigger downforce wing, yet were on top in speed trap.
.
I think Red Bull played an absolute blinder with the engine freeze rules -
they hid the PU's true potential
and have now got the benefit of the freeze. Bravo to them for that.
.
How do you mean? Where and when did they hide the true potential?
The Power of Honda!

mendis
mendis
3
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:12 pm

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

JPower wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:40 pm
mendis wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:18 pm
I have a hunch that, Honda PU is far more powerful than how it is being projected. In Monza, they bolted much bigger downforce wing, yet were on top in speed trap.

Red Bull is happy to hide the power as they can stay just ahead on speed trap and bolt a lot of downforce. I don't buy that they have low drag. Similarly, I don't buy that Mercedes has high drag. Their PU is just poor.
Doesn't make any sense. I've no calculations from any journalist whether that be AMuS or others to support any of what you're alleging. Honda has the best ERS system on the grid. The Red Bull clearly has shown its combination of low drag and ability to carry electrical power without clipping has lead to a huge advantage on the top end. The Mercedes PU might be down from Red Bull/Ferrari but the Williams is plenty fast in a straight line. The W13 is a parachute in comparison.
Williams produce no downforce and in return gets good top speed on a straight and decorates the bottom of the grid with around 2 seconds a lap slower.

In Budapest, Albon did 310.2kph in speed traps and Stroll did 300.9. Around 10kph difference. Yet, Stroll ended up a tenth ahead of Albon. Williams follows Ferrari sidepod philosophy and Aston follows Red Bull's. George did 305.2kph and ended 2 seconds ahead at the top of the timesheet. I would leave you to work out the drag and traction part between the three. Point is, IMO, Mercedes is nowhere as draggy as AM is with RB18 inspired aero (just for the straight line part).

Image

User avatar
etusch
105
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

mendis wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:18 pm
I have a hunch that, Honda PU is far more powerful than how it is being projected. In Monza, they bolted much bigger downforce wing, yet were on top in speed trap.

https://i.ibb.co/6sDCYnH/Screenshot-202 ... outube.jpg

Red Bull is happy to hide the power as they can stay just ahead on speed trap and bolt a lot of downforce. I don't buy that they have low drag. Similarly, I don't buy that Mercedes has high drag. Their PU is just poor.
We generally concentrate on wings but if redbull gets better df from floor, that is if there is a df pushes or sucks car to the ground it is a load for engine even if there is not drag which is another load. So I think better df always needs more power

mendis
mendis
3
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:12 pm

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

etusch wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:55 am
mendis wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:18 pm
I have a hunch that, Honda PU is far more powerful than how it is being projected. In Monza, they bolted much bigger downforce wing, yet were on top in speed trap.

https://i.ibb.co/6sDCYnH/Screenshot-202 ... outube.jpg

Red Bull is happy to hide the power as they can stay just ahead on speed trap and bolt a lot of downforce. I don't buy that they have low drag. Similarly, I don't buy that Mercedes has high drag. Their PU is just poor.
We generally concentrate on wings but if redbull gets better df from floor, that is if there is a df pushes or sucks car to the ground it is a load for engine even if there is not drag which is another load. So I think better df always needs more power
You are right. It does create suction and requires power to drag it, unless, they can stall the floor on straights.

User avatar
etusch
105
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Maybe they are stalling the floor because after some stage they are accelerating better ( if my eyes don't fail :D ) So maybe their car helps engine after some point but at the end engine brings them to there by pulling car with better df compared to rivals.

Curbstone
Curbstone
2
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:40 am

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

mendis wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:07 am
JPower wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:40 pm
mendis wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:18 pm
I have a hunch that, Honda PU is far more powerful than how it is being projected. In Monza, they bolted much bigger downforce wing, yet were on top in speed trap.

Red Bull is happy to hide the power as they can stay just ahead on speed trap and bolt a lot of downforce. I don't buy that they have low drag. Similarly, I don't buy that Mercedes has high drag. Their PU is just poor.
Doesn't make any sense. I've no calculations from any journalist whether that be AMuS or others to support any of what you're alleging. Honda has the best ERS system on the grid. The Red Bull clearly has shown its combination of low drag and ability to carry electrical power without clipping has lead to a huge advantage on the top end. The Mercedes PU might be down from Red Bull/Ferrari but the Williams is plenty fast in a straight line. The W13 is a parachute in comparison.
Williams produce no downforce and in return gets good top speed on a straight and decorates the bottom of the grid with around 2 seconds a lap slower.

In Budapest, Albon did 310.2kph in speed traps and Stroll did 300.9. Around 10kph difference. Yet, Stroll ended up a tenth ahead of Albon. Williams follows Ferrari sidepod philosophy and Aston follows Red Bull's. George did 305.2kph and ended 2 seconds ahead at the top of the timesheet. I would leave you to work out the drag and traction part between the three. Point is, IMO, Mercedes is nowhere as draggy as AM is with RB18 inspired aero (just for the straight line part).

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... A&usqp=CAU
Why is that..?
Is Budapest the best circuit to look at power vs drag? It seems to me also mechanical grip is of significant importance for a fast laptime at.

This 'holding back power' last year cost them the WCC and almost WDC. That's not how Red Bull or Honda would have wanted to end the season, knowing they could have won if they just increased the power output a bit.

mendis
mendis
3
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:12 pm

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Curbstone wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:37 am
mendis wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:07 am
JPower wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:40 pm


Doesn't make any sense. I've no calculations from any journalist whether that be AMuS or others to support any of what you're alleging. Honda has the best ERS system on the grid. The Red Bull clearly has shown its combination of low drag and ability to carry electrical power without clipping has lead to a huge advantage on the top end. The Mercedes PU might be down from Red Bull/Ferrari but the Williams is plenty fast in a straight line. The W13 is a parachute in comparison.
Williams produce no downforce and in return gets good top speed on a straight and decorates the bottom of the grid with around 2 seconds a lap slower.

In Budapest, Albon did 310.2kph in speed traps and Stroll did 300.9. Around 10kph difference. Yet, Stroll ended up a tenth ahead of Albon. Williams follows Ferrari sidepod philosophy and Aston follows Red Bull's. George did 305.2kph and ended 2 seconds ahead at the top of the timesheet. I would leave you to work out the drag and traction part between the three. Point is, IMO, Mercedes is nowhere as draggy as AM is with RB18 inspired aero (just for the straight line part).

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... A&usqp=CAU
Why is that..?
Is Budapest the best circuit to look at power vs drag? It seems to me also mechanical grip is of significant importance for a fast laptime at.

This 'holding back power' last year cost them the WCC and almost WDC. That's not how Red Bull or Honda would have wanted to end the season, knowing they could have won if they just increased the power output a bit.
You are confusing between what I said and another poster said. I never said they were holding back anything in 2021. I am being very specific about 2022 PU. I chose Budapest because teams want to load up the downforce most and yet there is a straight to observe power vs other tracks where there can always be a compromise.

Alexf1
Alexf1
8
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 pm

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Best way to evaluate power is exit speed from corner to mid of straight as this is before drag or ers deployment strategy becomes the dominant factor. Lots of gps graphs are available. These show Ferrari on top, then the rest

User avatar
organic
198
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:24 am
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

mendis wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:18 pm
I have a hunch that, Honda PU is far more powerful than how it is being projected. In Monza, they bolted much bigger downforce wing, yet were on top in speed trap.

https://i.ibb.co/6sDCYnH/Screenshot-202 ... outube.jpg

Red Bull is happy to hide the power as they can stay just ahead on speed trap and bolt a lot of downforce. I don't buy that they have low drag. Similarly, I don't buy that Mercedes has high drag. Their PU is just poor.
Where are the speed trap figures that show Red Bull being "on top"? From the telemetry shown throughout the weekend by various sources, not limited to Twitter users such as Project F1, F1 Data Analysis it shows that with DRS closed, RB were (as you'd expect) significantly down on top speed to Ferrari. With DRS open, there wasn't much between the two; with a larger secondary flap you stand to gain much more by opening the DRS so this would add up. What we can comfortably conclude is that with all 3 downforce levels RB have an extremely efficient DRS system.

Data of top speeds says far more about drag, deployment choices than simply power. Analysis of acceleration phases not limited by traction or drag tells you about the engine far more, and all information from credible sources (eg AMuS) points to Ferrari having the greatest peak power, Honda shortly behind and Renault/Mercedes down 5-10HP from there. Nobody disputes that Honda have brought a simply brilliant engine however - the deployment that they achieve in races is incredible.

I'll let you provide evidence to back up your claims before going further as there is not enough time to respond thoroughly to every conspiracy theory in F1 :lol: