2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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organic wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:28 am
Nobody disputes that Honda have brought a simply brilliant engine however - the deployment that they achieve in races is incredible.
At least part of this advantage comes from their inherently more slippery car making ERS look better vs competition than it probably is. In Hungary when everyone ran maxed out they weren't really anything special on straights, pretty much in line with everyone else. Same thing happened in Italy when ferrari held a clear advantage on available deployment because they ran so much less wing. Drag matters a lot with these regs.

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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:08 am
Best way to evaluate power is exit speed from corner to mid of straight as this is before drag or ers deployment strategy becomes the dominant factor. Lots of gps graphs are available. These show Ferrari on top, then the rest
Mechanical grip determines traction out of a corner and even if there is a powerful PU, but the traction out of corner is poor, then you might not see the power playing a role there. As soon as throttle goes down, a poor mechanical grip can create a lot of wheelspin, which could easily cripple the accelration. Good drivers can manage the throttle application to avoid wheel spin in case of a poor traction that they already know, so sometimes even if we don't see wheelspin but there might still be poor traction out of corner. I am not sure if there is a striaght forward way to measure power difference. Ferrari may have a good traction out of the corner, which Red Bull doesn't (I am not sure if that is the case), but in a drag race, RB can outdo Ferrari as it stands. It could either be because Ferrari has a lot more drag or because Honda PU is more powerful and peak power lasts longer on straight.

This not a great example, but look at the way Max taking out 7 tenths from Mercedes, half way down the straight. It represents both traction and power, needless to say there was DRS too. But 7 tenths within half a straight is still insane.


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organic
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:37 am
organic wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:28 am
Nobody disputes that Honda have brought a simply brilliant engine however - the deployment that they achieve in races is incredible.
At least part of this advantage comes from their inherently more slippery car making ERS look better vs competition than it probably is. In Hungary when everyone ran maxed out they weren't really anything special on straights, pretty much in line with everyone else. Same thing happened in Italy when ferrari held a clear advantage on available deployment because they ran so much less wing. Drag matters a lot with these regs.
Very good point - would +1 if I could

Cs98
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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organic wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:28 am
mendis wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:18 pm
I have a hunch that, Honda PU is far more powerful than how it is being projected. In Monza, they bolted much bigger downforce wing, yet were on top in speed trap.

https://i.ibb.co/6sDCYnH/Screenshot-202 ... outube.jpg

Red Bull is happy to hide the power as they can stay just ahead on speed trap and bolt a lot of downforce. I don't buy that they have low drag. Similarly, I don't buy that Mercedes has high drag. Their PU is just poor.
Where are the speed trap figures that show Red Bull being "on top"? From the telemetry shown throughout the weekend by various sources, not limited to Twitter users such as Project F1, F1 Data Analysis it shows that with DRS closed, RB were (as you'd expect) significantly down on top speed to Ferrari. With DRS open, there wasn't much between the two; with a larger secondary flap you stand to gain much more by opening the DRS so this would add up. What we can comfortably conclude is that with all 3 downforce levels RB have an extremely efficient DRS system.

Data of top speeds says far more about drag, deployment choices than simply power. Analysis of acceleration phases not limited by traction or drag tells you about the engine far more, and all information from credible sources (eg AMuS) points to Ferrari having the greatest peak power, Honda shortly behind and Renault/Mercedes down 5-10HP from there. Nobody disputes that Honda have brought a simply brilliant engine however - the deployment that they achieve in races is incredible.

I'll let you provide evidence to back up your claims before going further as there is not enough time to respond thoroughly to every conspiracy theory in F1 :lol:
Peak power doesn’t necessarily make the most powerful engine. Let’s say Honda has more deployment available (which seems to be the case according to many analysts), they can deploy more power over a period of time than Ferrari who might have slightly more “peak power” but not more average power across the entire lap.

For the purpose of lap time generated by the engine, the average power across the whole lap is what is relevant. Slightly more power at a certain point of acceleration is a nice bragging point to say “we have the most power”, but doesn’t mean much when you can’t deploy that power for as long as Honda can deploy theirs.

And Ferrari’s power is deceptive anyways. Because they have been turning the engines first up (around Miami-Baku) then back down due to the blow-ups. And then back up at Monza because it’s Italy. So is their “peak power” what they can reliably produce, or what they can produce for 2-3 races before their engine explodes?

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atanatizante
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Bill wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:56 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:18 pm
The reason why RB18 is so fast down the straights and in general, afterall :

it is not just redbull that is quick down the straight it is also alpha tauri which dont have any fancy aero kit.fia gives data about these after quali and race so it is easy to check and make an argument.redbull have been struggling with straight line speed for many years with renault ,if they were some aero tricks to boost down straight why did they not deploy it then if likes of scarbs belief its that easy.ferrari could match red bull straight line speed in Baku and Austria but it came with reliability issues so the pu have been dialled back then to provide more sustainable performance over the entire season.what i see hear is the europeans trying to explain away Honda success after belittle them and underestimating them when they were struggling,its like when the chinese beat american to 5g race to the us china was stealing american tech they did no have.i think its about perception people have about themself than reality.if that Honda pu was a merc everybody will be falling all over themself and telling us about how great and wonderful it is like last year rocket engine that never was.
I have a theory, but only a guy with knowledge of aerodynamics can confirm or deny it...

I think that with the increase in the ride height of the car starting from Baku, the RB aero guys (or better said Adrian Newey) did what they knew best in the past and for which they have accumulated so much experience: to produce downforce by raising the rear axle by increasing the diffuser volume. I come up with this theory because it is suspected that the downforce produced by the car comes from the ground effect, the wings of the car but also from its diffuser like in the old era of last year. But what is interesting is the fact that the latter has a much higher percentage of influence than other teams, precisely that the vast majority of cars now in this era of ground effect cars use very low ground clearance or at best very little car rake. Some even say that after the ground effect the downforce produced by the RB18 diffuser is even greater than that produced by the wings...

In addition to that by approaching an increased rake of the car, it also eliminates porpoising effects, of course in conjunction with the suspension system and dampers that are configured for a longer travel compared to other cars...

The only problems of the RB18 car were at the beginning of the year to France and consisted of the car was too heavy and the incomplete sealing of the floor ... the car's heavy weight had a negative effect, especially on the front axle, which caused an understeer behaviour that was not to the liking of VER and on the contrary was to the liking of PER, hence the very close results between them at the beginning of the year.

The second problem - the vortex sealing of the sides of the car floor - began to be solved starting in Baku and was finalized in France when they found the ideal solution, but this solution induced a transfer of the car's balance from the front axle to the rear one, so it transferred the centre of pressure to the rear of the car and thus it becoming pointy and oversteery ... this phenomenon was accentuated at Spa when they came with the new chassis (with the new arrangement of carbon fibres) which led both to a reduction in the weight of the car and the continuation of the mass transfer from the front to the rear axle, hence the huge time difference between the two drivers...

As for the high top speed and this was helped by this high rake car making it very slippery or aero efficient ... and having the highest downforce of all the cars RB can afford to use a very thin rear wing with a very small AoA, hence the highest top speeds ... and the fact that from Spa onwards they raced with normal and even larger rear wings compared to the competition says that they could afford to modify the setup the car precisely to have better tire management, especially on high-speed circuits like Spa and Monza ...
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etusch
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:08 am
Best way to evaluate power is exit speed from corner to mid of straight as this is before drag or ers deployment strategy becomes the dominant factor. Lots of gps graphs are available. These show Ferrari on top, then the rest
If you trying to count only ice power by saying this, i think it is impossible for outsider. How can you say any Pu didn't use any ers power when accelerating out of corner ? Less or more.
Redbull was almost heaviest car out there. Longer gearing compared to Ferrari. So their setup for max speed.
Ferrari also heavier then min limit but I think not as heavy as redbull. They use shorter gearing compared to RB. So their setup for faster acceleration.
I don't know if they are talking only by gps data but when you think about these too, even if ferrari have more power it is very small when you think about peak power.
But when we think about race trim, remember that Perez had a sensor issue, lost 30 hp and still attacked to Sainz on the straight. So best PU out there is simply HOnda PU. Peak Power? it can debatable
And there is another factor there. Eurocentric thinking. Maybe some don't want to accept that an eastern made better job. I know there are many to see this is unrelated but I am sure this is related to subject.

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atanatizante
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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JPower wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:40 pm
mendis wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:18 pm
I have a hunch that, Honda PU is far more powerful than how it is being projected. In Monza, they bolted much bigger downforce wing, yet were on top in speed trap.

Red Bull is happy to hide the power as they can stay just ahead on speed trap and bolt a lot of downforce. I don't buy that they have low drag. Similarly, I don't buy that Mercedes has high drag. Their PU is just poor.
Doesn't make any sense. I've no calculations from any journalist whether that be AMuS or others to support any of what you're alleging. Honda has the best ERS system on the grid. The Red Bull clearly has shown its combination of low drag and ability to carry electrical power without clipping has lead to a huge advantage on the top end. The Mercedes PU might be down from Red Bull/Ferrari but the Williams is plenty fast in a straight line. The W13 is a parachute in comparison.
After the 1st of September there was instituted a freeze on ERS, MGU-K and tailpipes (if I'm not mistaken) and there has been little press coverage of this matter, from my point of view ...

So it is speculated that Honda/RB has made a new leap in performance in the development of the ERS (now pooling away clearly from the other manufacturers in this particular area), mostly by lengthening the deployment time over a lap by increasing the transformation rate of the fuel to electric power through the MGU-H. This way they are having now those top speeds and thus increased possibilities for the drivers to overtake and defend much easier and more often without doing lift and coast in the race as much as they did before ...
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Big Tea
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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atanatizante wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:24 pm
JPower wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:40 pm
mendis wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:18 pm
I have a hunch that, Honda PU is far more powerful than how it is being projected. In Monza, they bolted much bigger downforce wing, yet were on top in speed trap.

Red Bull is happy to hide the power as they can stay just ahead on speed trap and bolt a lot of downforce. I don't buy that they have low drag. Similarly, I don't buy that Mercedes has high drag. Their PU is just poor.
Doesn't make any sense. I've no calculations from any journalist whether that be AMuS or others to support any of what you're alleging. Honda has the best ERS system on the grid. The Red Bull clearly has shown its combination of low drag and ability to carry electrical power without clipping has lead to a huge advantage on the top end. The Mercedes PU might be down from Red Bull/Ferrari but the Williams is plenty fast in a straight line. The W13 is a parachute in comparison.
After the 1st of September there was instituted a freeze on ERS, MGU-K and tailpipes (if I'm not mistaken) and there has been little press coverage of this matter, from my point of view ...

So it is speculated that Honda/RB has made a new leap in performance in the development of the ERS (now pooling away clearly from the other manufacturers in this particular area), mostly by lengthening the deployment time over a lap by increasing the transformation rate of the fuel to electric power through the MGU-H. This way they are having now those top speeds and thus increased possibilities for the drivers to overtake and defend much easier and more often without doing lift and coast in the race as much as they did before ...
We will probably see the other engines get 'reliability improvements' before year end.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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etusch wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:56 am
Alexf1 wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:08 am
Best way to evaluate power is exit speed from corner to mid of straight as this is before drag or ers deployment strategy becomes the dominant factor. Lots of gps graphs are available. These show Ferrari on top, then the rest
If you trying to count only ice power by saying this, i think it is impossible for outsider. How can you say any Pu didn't use any ers power when accelerating out of corner ? Less or more.
Redbull was almost heaviest car out there. Longer gearing compared to Ferrari. So their setup for max speed.
Ferrari also heavier then min limit but I think not as heavy as redbull. They use shorter gearing compared to RB. So their setup for faster acceleration.
I don't know if they are talking only by gps data but when you think about these too, even if ferrari have more power it is very small when you think about peak power.
But when we think about race trim, remember that Perez had a sensor issue, lost 30 hp and still attacked to Sainz on the straight. So best PU out there is simply HOnda PU. Peak Power? it can debatable
And there is another factor there. Eurocentric thinking. Maybe some don't want to accept that an eastern made better job. I know there are many to see this is unrelated but I am sure this is related to subject.
Other way around: including ers deployment. You want that at the beginning of the main straight. Max mgu-k power is equal for all. The analysis at Spa on Max vs Carlos from exit La Source all the way up to Les Combes. It shows that only at the end Max gains back a bit even though he's much earlier on the throttle on the exit of La Source

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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It would probably be more interesting to see where the cars begin their clipping on a lap to recharge. Would be a interesting comparison between teams.

Also, what is the last date the teams have to run the new ERS? Imagine RB will have already run the setup, but I do remember there being a few races after the deadline that the new stuff had to be 'used'
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

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Wouter
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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https://www.speedweek.com/formel1/news/ ... Monza.html
.
Red Bull Racing: Keine Motor-Strafen mehr nach Monza?

Der Brite [Horner] hofft, dass dies die letzten Rückversetzungen für Verstappen und Pérez in diesem Jahr waren. «Wir hoffen, dass wir nun ohne weitere Strafen bis zum Saisonende kommen», sagte er, und blieb auch beim Thema WM-Titel vorsichtig – obwohl Verstappen und Red Bull Racing über einen grossen Vorsprung verfügen.
.
Red Bull Racing: No more engine penalties after Monza?

The Brit [Horner] hopes these will be the last demotions for Verstappen and Pérez this year.
"We hope that we can now get to the end of the season without further penalties," he said, and also remained cautious on the subject of the world title - although Verstappen and Red Bull Racing have a large lead.
The Power of Honda!

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etusch
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:32 pm


Other way around: including ers deployment. You want that at the beginning of the main straight. Max mgu-k power is equal for all. The analysis at Spa on Max vs Carlos from exit La Source all the way up to Les Combes. It shows that only at the end Max gains back a bit even though he's much earlier on the throttle on the exit of La Source
It is equal as max power but not equal usage it at some point or during whole lap with higher performance ( can be equal too by chance).

In the other hand, if they are using same tyre, when other variables are equal except df, it should be same grip from tyres. So if you have more df then you can use more power. if the df is same you can use same power. When you compare tyre usage, I can say that even if they got same acceleration speed at corner exits, still Redbull has better setup. (I mean if Redbull has more df on the contrary of what we see as wing and same speed, more load on engine. But ers settings prevent to see ice power )
We can take a look at how Sainz can not attack on Perez at monaco. Sainz had said that their rear tyre wear was more and can not accelerate well enough to attack at the end of only possible place. Questions, is ferrari engine use too much power on low speed or corner exits, aren't they enough df to keep tyre sticked to ground, are expecting too much from corner exits ?
Last edited by etusch on Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wouter
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Translation: Why Verstappen no longer fears 'Monaco problem' in Singapore

Max Verstappen was unhappy about the RB18 on street circuits at the start of this Formula 1 season. Particularly in 90-degree turns, the front of the RB18 did not turn in tight enough, according to the reigning world champion. It played tricks on him in Monaco and Baku, but Verstappen is not worried about the Singapore Grand Prix - a circuit on which similar things are requested.

No more 'Monaco problem', but a test for man and machine

"Well, at the beginning of this year the car was mainly too heavy. That excess weight was just in the wrong place, so that our car tended to understeer," Verstappen said to a question from Motorsport.com. Waché has already explained in Italy that the excess weight at the front was 'forced to be part of the set-up', making the cumbersome front unavoidable. In the meantime, the car has not only been further developed, but has also become a lot lighter. "I don't think we will have the same problem again in Singapore," Verstappen predicts.

"In Singapore we may run into other things. Of course we have not been there for a few years because of corona. Normally the track there is very bumpy, so you have to look extra closely at the setting. This year it is even bigger. question mark because we have yet to see how these new cars respond to the bumps."
The Power of Honda!

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:22 pm
Translation: Why Verstappen no longer fears 'Monaco problem' in Singapore
.....
I dont think we will suffer with the bumps as bad as some others. Of course there is the stiffer suspension and smaller tyre sidewall to worry about, but I really dont think we will see the RB18 bouncing down the road. The car has looked like its been on a magic carpet for a very good part of the season.
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

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Juzh
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Re: 2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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etusch wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:56 am
Alexf1 wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:08 am
Best way to evaluate power is exit speed from corner to mid of straight as this is before drag or ers deployment strategy becomes the dominant factor. Lots of gps graphs are available. These show Ferrari on top, then the rest
If you trying to count only ice power by saying this, i think it is impossible for outsider. How can you say any Pu didn't use any ers power when accelerating out of corner ? Less or more.
Redbull was almost heaviest car out there. Longer gearing compared to Ferrari. So their setup for max speed.
Ferrari also heavier then min limit but I think not as heavy as redbull. They use shorter gearing compared to RB. So their setup for faster acceleration.
I don't know if they are talking only by gps data but when you think about these too, even if ferrari have more power it is very small when you think about peak power.
But when we think about race trim, remember that Perez had a sensor issue, lost 30 hp and still attacked to Sainz on the straight. So best PU out there is simply HOnda PU. Peak Power? it can debatable
And there is another factor there. Eurocentric thinking. Maybe some don't want to accept that an eastern made better job. I know there are many to see this is unrelated but I am sure this is related to subject.
Everyone uses maximum power ICE + ERS up to certain speed. Depending on track and type of straight this can be up to ~260 kmh or up to ~310-320 kmh. From ~130-150 km/h up to ~270 km/h you're not traction limited and everyone is using all available power, so variables are at a minimum. It is in this range that ferrari is exhibiting an acceleration advantage over all other engines (yes, even honda). I believe this advantage was for various reasons more pronounced earlier in the season, but with RB having some diet lately and possibly ferrari toning it down a bit for reliability it has shrunk to almost non-existent now.

Gear ratios don't matter, this has been debated to death. Even then ferrari and RB have almost identical ratios so people should really stop brining this up all the time.

Oh yes, and the whole eurocentric thing is BS, sorry.