2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Henri
Henri
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Re: 2022 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Ryar wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:26 am
Henri wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:17 am
Newey has to show if his not overrated because dan fallow was the chief designer of the cars not him.. lets see if they competitive ?
I had mentioned this previously, Newey stepped aside from his responsibilities in 2016 and Dan Fallows led the 2017 car development, which turned out to be a dud unfortunately. Everyone thought there was going to be a Spec B coming out soon because the new car was completely bland, but it never happened. Newey was brought back to bring some competitiveness for the car that resulted in decent progress and a more respectable 2018. We have witnessed it already. For a man who has delivered so many championships with different teams, there is hardly anything left to prove really. Nothing is going damage his reputation.
Yeah. But those title winning red bulls where designed with other guys like peter who are not given credit.. not one guy can build a car by themselves without help

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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ispano6 wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:03 am
Henri wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:17 am
Newey has to show if his not overrated because dan fallow was the chief designer of the cars not him.. lets see if they competitive ?
Exactly who does he need to prove to that he isn't overrated? Overrated usually applies to someone who is new and without a proven track record.

From Wikipedia:
Newey-designed cars have won the following Formula One World Constructors' Championships:

1992 – Williams FW14B
1993 – Williams FW15C
1994 – Williams FW16
1996 – Williams FW18
1997 – Williams FW19
1998 – McLaren MP4/13
2010 – Red Bull RB6
2011 – Red Bull RB7
2012 – Red Bull RB8
2013 – Red Bull RB9
2021 – Red Bull RB16b (drivers championship, could have been a constructor's championship too)
It's worth remembering that Newey didn't design those cars in isolation because no "designer" does. He was part of a team in each case, as are all of the "big names" that we talk about at various teams and at various times. For example, the Williams's were designed by a team led by Patrick Head where the McLaren was designed by a team led by Newey - Neil Oatley was the "Chief Designer" for that one but obviously under the guidance of Newey.

Look at one car - the RB6 and Wiki lists the designers thus:

Adrian Newey (Chief Technical Officer)
Rob Marshall (Chief Designer)
Steve Winstanley (Chief Engineer, Composites and Structures)
Dave Worner (Chief Engineer, Mechanics and Suspension)
Mark Ellis (Chief Engineer, Performance)
Andrew Green (Head of R&D)
Giles Wood (Chief Engineer, Simulation and Analysis)
Peter Prodromou (Chief Engineer, Aerodynamics)
Dan Fallows (Chief Aerodynamicist)

To say that "Newey designed it" is just incorrect. Yes, he led the team and yes, he probably set the overall feel for the car's design, but many others were involved in designing it and making it a success.

Having said all that, the fact that he has consistently achieved success working with good people shows us that he can lead a team very effectively.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Scalexf1
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Re: 2022 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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lio007 wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:57 pm
Oh Lord, let pre-season testing start, it can't be soon enough!
A men.

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Ryar
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Re: 2022 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:53 am
ispano6 wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:03 am
Henri wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:17 am
Newey has to show if his not overrated because dan fallow was the chief designer of the cars not him.. lets see if they competitive ?
Exactly who does he need to prove to that he isn't overrated? Overrated usually applies to someone who is new and without a proven track record.

From Wikipedia:
Newey-designed cars have won the following Formula One World Constructors' Championships:

1992 – Williams FW14B
1993 – Williams FW15C
1994 – Williams FW16
1996 – Williams FW18
1997 – Williams FW19
1998 – McLaren MP4/13
2010 – Red Bull RB6
2011 – Red Bull RB7
2012 – Red Bull RB8
2013 – Red Bull RB9
2021 – Red Bull RB16b (drivers championship, could have been a constructor's championship too)
It's worth remembering that Newey didn't design those cars in isolation because no "designer" does. He was part of a team in each case, as are all of the "big names" that we talk about at various teams and at various times. For example, the Williams's were designed by a team led by Patrick Head where the McLaren was designed by a team led by Newey - Neil Oatley was the "Chief Designer" for that one but obviously under the guidance of Newey.

Look at one car - the RB6 and Wiki lists the designers thus:

Adrian Newey (Chief Technical Officer)
Rob Marshall (Chief Designer)
Steve Winstanley (Chief Engineer, Composites and Structures)
Dave Worner (Chief Engineer, Mechanics and Suspension)
Mark Ellis (Chief Engineer, Performance)
Andrew Green (Head of R&D)
Giles Wood (Chief Engineer, Simulation and Analysis)
Peter Prodromou (Chief Engineer, Aerodynamics)
Dan Fallows (Chief Aerodynamicist)

To say that "Newey designed it" is just incorrect. Yes, he led the team and yes, he probably set the overall feel for the car's design, but many others were involved in designing it and making it a success.

Having said all that, the fact that he has consistently achieved success working with good people shows us that he can lead a team very effectively.
But you can't deny that, every team he left, went into shambles and hasn't exactly won anything.
Hakuna Matata!

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Ryar
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:28 pm

Re: 2022 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Henri wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:31 am
Ryar wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:26 am
Henri wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:17 am
Newey has to show if his not overrated because dan fallow was the chief designer of the cars not him.. lets see if they competitive ?
I had mentioned this previously, Newey stepped aside from his responsibilities in 2016 and Dan Fallows led the 2017 car development, which turned out to be a dud unfortunately. Everyone thought there was going to be a Spec B coming out soon because the new car was completely bland, but it never happened. Newey was brought back to bring some competitiveness for the car that resulted in decent progress and a more respectable 2018. We have witnessed it already. For a man who has delivered so many championships with different teams, there is hardly anything left to prove really. Nothing is going damage his reputation.
Yeah. But those title winning red bulls where designed with other guys like peter who are not given credit.. not one guy can build a car by themselves without help
Not just Peter, everyone that worked to design and build the car deserve credit. It's the leader of the pack that gets named, which in Red Bull's case, is Newey.
Hakuna Matata!

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AeroDynamic
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Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:25 am
Location: La règle du jeu

Re: 2022 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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McLaren won the drivers title in 08*image and were very competitive in 07-08. They started the new regs slow in 09 but the 2010 \ 2012 cars were very competitive as well, bar reliability issues they were competitive enough to fight for titles. So I wouldn’t say teams didn’t win anything without him. In the case of McLaren, not much had changed with and without newey - they were fast with him, and notoriously unreliable as well, they won 1 title with. The same proved true over the the following years without him.

But Adrian Newey is still the greatest, at least statistically in terms of success. Dan Fallows had one bad year but if he was that bad he wouldn’t keep his place. Newey has had some bad cars, so it can happen to the best of them.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Ryar wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:32 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:53 am
ispano6 wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:03 am
Having said all that, the fact that he has consistently achieved success working with good people shows us that he can lead a team very effectively.
But you can't deny that, every team he left, went into shambles and hasn't exactly won anything.
I think my final sentence, quoted here, indicates that I think he's a very effective team leader.

But we must also point out that McLaren only won one title with one of "his" cars and he was there for several seasons. Also, Red Bull have only won one title since 2013 and he was at the technical helm all of that time too. So it's unfair to suggest that a team is successful until he leaves and then fails. It's not always successful when he's there, either.

Newey's the most successful engineer in F1 history, yes, but just as with the drivers, he doesn't do it all on his own.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
537
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2022 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Ryar wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:35 am
Henri wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:31 am
Ryar wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:26 am
I had mentioned this previously, Newey stepped aside from his responsibilities in 2016 and Dan Fallows led the 2017 car development, which turned out to be a dud unfortunately. Everyone thought there was going to be a Spec B coming out soon because the new car was completely bland, but it never happened. Newey was brought back to bring some competitiveness for the car that resulted in decent progress and a more respectable 2018. We have witnessed it already. For a man who has delivered so many championships with different teams, there is hardly anything left to prove really. Nothing is going damage his reputation.
Yeah. But those title winning red bulls where designed with other guys like peter who are not given credit.. not one guy can build a car by themselves without help
Not just Peter, everyone that worked to design and build the car deserve credit. It's the leader of the pack that gets named, which in Red Bull's case, is Newey.
Sadly it's a result of the "we must have a person to praise" / celebrity / star culture that the media loves to push these days. Star drivers, star designers, star managers. It's all tripe - F1 is a team game and no one, be that star designer, star driver, star manager, wins without the whole team working properly.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2022 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I have to say that I'm really looking forward to seeing what Red Bull do this year with the very restrictive regulations we now have. They're a team that is very good at finding loop holes and "clever things" so I think they're going to be right up there this year. I can see back-to-back titles for Max this year.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Wouter
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Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: 2022 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:14 pm
Also, Red Bull have only won one title since 2013 and he was at the technical helm all of that time too.
So it's unfair to suggest that a team is successful until he leaves and then fails.
It's not always successful when he's there, either.

Newey's the most successful engineer in F1 history, yes, but just as with the drivers, he doesn't do it all on his own.
I assume you also know that Mercedes had a much better and faster PU all along.
Then your car can be as good, but then you can never win.
The Power of Honda!

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AeroDynamic
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Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:25 am
Location: La règle du jeu

Re: 2022 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:18 pm
I have to say that I'm really looking forward to seeing what Red Bull do this year with the very restrictive regulations we now have. They're a team that is very good at finding loop holes and "clever things" so I think they're going to be right up there this year. I can see back-to-back titles for Max this year.

They definitely have the capability, so teams like Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren are gonna have to bring their A game and be on point - they’ll want to figure out similar ideas or better ones otherwise this will be Newey’s! Somebody is going to get Brawned*image

Think back to 09, the double diffuser trick was the only reason Newey didn’t dominate those new regs from the off. Things only changed once formula 1 became an engine formula as much as an aero formula in 2014.
Last edited by AeroDynamic on Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Henri
Henri
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Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:58 am

Re: 2022 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:59 am
McLaren won the drivers title in 08*image and were very competitive in 07-08. They started the new regs slow in 09 but the 2010 \ 2012 cars were very competitive as well, bar reliability issues they were competitive enough to fight for titles. So I wouldn’t say teams didn’t win anything without him. In the case of McLaren, not much had changed with and without newey - they were fast with him, and notoriously unreliable as well, they won 1 title with. The same proved true over the the following years without him.

But Adrian Newey is still the greatest, at least statistically in terms of success. Dan Fallows had one bad year but if he was that bad he wouldn’t keep his place. Newey has had some bad cars, so it can happen to the best of them.
He's good but not the greatest. We have colin chapman who innovated f1 to different levels plus rory Byrne and aldo costa are just as good

Henri
Henri
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Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:58 am

Re: 2022 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:16 pm
Ryar wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:35 am
Henri wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:31 am

Yeah. But those title winning red bulls where designed with other guys like peter who are not given credit.. not one guy can build a car by themselves without help
Not just Peter, everyone that worked to design and build the car deserve credit. It's the leader of the pack that gets named, which in Red Bull's case, is Newey.
Sadly it's a result of the "we must have a person to praise" / celebrity / star culture that the media loves to push these days. Star drivers, star designers, star managers. It's all tripe - F1 is a team game and no one, be that star designer, star driver, star manager, wins without the whole team working properly.
True f1 is always about the team not 1 person

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
537
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2022 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:22 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:14 pm
Also, Red Bull have only won one title since 2013 and he was at the technical helm all of that time too.
So it's unfair to suggest that a team is successful until he leaves and then fails.
It's not always successful when he's there, either.

Newey's the most successful engineer in F1 history, yes, but just as with the drivers, he doesn't do it all on his own.
I assume you also know that Mercedes had a much better and faster PU all along.
Then your car can be as good, but then you can never win.
That's all part of the sport - getting the right engine is as important as getting the aero right. As technical director of the team, part of the failure to get the right engine falls at his feet. You have to accept responsibility for failures as well as accept the plaudits for successes.

McLaren had one of the best engines back when Newey was there - the Ilmor-Mercedes units were as good as any on the grid. So that needs to be remembered.

Red Bull didn't have the fastest PU in the Vettel-winning years, but they had the PU that gave the best diffuser blowing performance, even when the FIA tried to reduce the effectiveness of blowing. They tended not to give Renault the credit back then, but were quick to throw them under the bus in the hybrid era. That sticks in the throat a bit, for me - "we're winning because we're the best but we're losing because they messed up".

Anyway, as I say in another post, I'm looking forward to seeing what Newey's team comes up with this year. The PU is now top drawer so it's going to come down to the designers to get the platform working well. Exciting times for us all, I'm sure you'll agree.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 pm

Re: 2022 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:36 pm
Wouter wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:22 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:14 pm
Also, Red Bull have only won one title since 2013 and he was at the technical helm all of that time too.
So it's unfair to suggest that a team is successful until he leaves and then fails.
It's not always successful when he's there, either.

Newey's the most successful engineer in F1 history, yes, but just as with the drivers, he doesn't do it all on his own.
I assume you also know that Mercedes had a much better and faster PU all along.
Then your car can be as good, but then you can never win.
That's all part of the sport - getting the right engine is as important as getting the aero right. As technical director of the team, part of the failure to get the right engine falls at his feet. You have to accept responsibility for failures as well as accept the plaudits for successes.

McLaren had one of the best engines back when Newey was there - the Ilmor-Mercedes units were as good as any on the grid. So that needs to be remembered.

Red Bull didn't have the fastest PU in the Vettel-winning years, but they had the PU that gave the best diffuser blowing performance, even when the FIA tried to reduce the effectiveness of blowing. They tended not to give Renault the credit back then, but were quick to throw them under the bus in the hybrid era. That sticks in the throat a bit, for me - "we're winning because we're the best but we're losing because they messed up".

Anyway, as I say in another post, I'm looking forward to seeing what Newey's team comes up with this year. The PU is now top drawer so it's going to come down to the designers to get the platform working well. Exciting times for us all, I'm sure you'll agree.
They at least shared the engine, something Mercedes was too afraid to do. Inferior chassis maybe?