2022 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Big Tea
89
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Aston Martin AMR22

Post

Chuckjr wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 8:02 am
Look, if they have pics from Nov with this design, I don’t see what the argument is about aero plagiarism. It’s a good design. Clearly we know that.

Didn’t all the teams end up copying the coanda in some way shape or form? Didn’t all engine manufacturers create a blowing effect for the blown diffuser? Didn’t all the manufacturers build some form of double diffuser? Heck back in the day the name of the game was more rear wings. Eventually it got to like 9 or something individual rear wing elements on the back of the car. It was ridiculous. But that’s F1. It’s a friggin circus. Everybody copies because if a design works, it works. It’s not a pride issue, it’s a competitiveness issue. As Al Davis used to say (former owner of the Oakland Raiders), “Just win baby.” That is what you are seeing here.

It would be no surprise at all if next year many cars use a similar if not identical Red Bull pod design. I’d not be surprised if we saw something similar to Ferrari next year in a car or two. Most, if not all copied Ferrari’s forward pod design and that transformed into wings and scoops. This is called development. Nothing squirrelly going on.

It’s not fair to shrug your shoulders at one form of aero plagiarism and not another. One sentence copied or a paragraph copied, is plagiarism. So the same here. One major element or an entire pod — it’s a form of plagiarism, and it’s the highest form of flattery. Accept this. It’s just the way it is. The end.

So it makes complete sense they landed on a near identical design. It’s a good design. Get over it and expect more copies to happen. It’s like team orders — it’s going to happen covertly or overtly whether you like it or not. The teams want to win and will do what’s necessary to win even if it pisses you off. Because they don’t really care about you, they care about winning. That’s why team bosses lie to the public all the time. It’s a circus, remember?

Aero facts don’t care about your feelings, and the team will follow the facts to win regardless how you feel about it, gladiator style. This is love and war. Winner takes all. Second is first loser. Don’t kid yourself thinking they care if you care they copied.

The more you gripe and complain about their actions, or motives, or plagiarisms, the more distracted you’ll become and the less fun you’ll have - and they still won’t care, and you will have less fun. They keep winning and you keep losing. So by appreciating the impossibleness of it all, it becomes so much easier to swallow and so much more fun to watch.

Try and see this as a novelty and how righteous it would be to have another car at the sharp end this year. That would be awesome. They certainly were not going to be competitive in the monstrosity they had, and how cool —how novel— would it be to see AM take Red Bull to school with the design? I’m not saying that will happen, and likely it won’t happe, but now it *could* happen, and so it’s righteously novel. It also would be nice to see old man Vettel have a competitive car again, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

Hats off to AM and what they are doing to try and win. I hope they do well even tho I think Stroll is a $hit driver and should not be in F1.
Copy one persons work and its plagiarism, copy everyone's and its called research?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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TimW
21
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:07 pm

Re: Aston Martin AMR22

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Chuckjr wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 8:02 am

So it makes complete sense they landed on a near identical design. .
No it is not. Alpine and AT have the same concept, but different detailing. Independent development will always have different detailing, because the design is interlinked with front wing design, suspension design etc.

If AM had a design with identical detailing in the wind tunnel in November, that can realistically only have been the result of data transfer. The only legal option is that they copied the detailing after the Bahrein test.

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Quantum
14
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:59 pm

Re: Aston Martin AMR22

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TimW wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 11:44 am
Chuckjr wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 8:02 am

So it makes complete sense they landed on a near identical design. .
No it is not. Alpine and AT have the same concept, but different detailing. Independent development will always have different detailing, because the design is interlinked with front wing design, suspension design etc.

If AM had a design with identical detailing in the wind tunnel in November, that can realistically only have been the result of data transfer. The only legal option is that they copied the detailing after the Bahrein test.
Only, its not identical.

The idea might be, but that is not illegal.
I believe this is convergence of an identical idea. But if you look at the pods, they AM tapers down more gently, and the detailing is not 1:1 copied.

RB added a stay onto their bib in the last race, an idea copied from AM which was very similar. Are we to treat that the same?

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Swifty
0
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:08 pm

Re: 2022 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

Post

What a joke...

NAPI10
NAPI10
13
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: 2022 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

Post

Seb mentioned last week, team is not expecting much of a performance improvement with the upgrade. It's more of a course correction.

F1doc
F1doc
8
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:09 am

Re: 2022 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

Post

Swifty wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 3:23 pm
What a joke...
Williams still dead last. AM likely will have to learn how to set up and extract performance from this update. The other teams haven't had such a dramatic change, so they have an edge with car learning. I doubt we will see much change in form until after Monaco.

Pany
Pany
4
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:26 am

Re: 2022 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

Post

AhahHHah

User avatar
diffuser
154
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Aston Martin AMR22

Post

Big Tea wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 9:14 am
Chuckjr wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 8:02 am
Look, if they have pics from Nov with this design, I don’t see what the argument is about aero plagiarism. It’s a good design. Clearly we know that.

Didn’t all the teams end up copying the coanda in some way shape or form? Didn’t all engine manufacturers create a blowing effect for the blown diffuser? Didn’t all the manufacturers build some form of double diffuser? Heck back in the day the name of the game was more rear wings. Eventually it got to like 9 or something individual rear wing elements on the back of the car. It was ridiculous. But that’s F1. It’s a friggin circus. Everybody copies because if a design works, it works. It’s not a pride issue, it’s a competitiveness issue. As Al Davis used to say (former owner of the Oakland Raiders), “Just win baby.” That is what you are seeing here.

It would be no surprise at all if next year many cars use a similar if not identical Red Bull pod design. I’d not be surprised if we saw something similar to Ferrari next year in a car or two. Most, if not all copied Ferrari’s forward pod design and that transformed into wings and scoops. This is called development. Nothing squirrelly going on.

It’s not fair to shrug your shoulders at one form of aero plagiarism and not another. One sentence copied or a paragraph copied, is plagiarism. So the same here. One major element or an entire pod — it’s a form of plagiarism, and it’s the highest form of flattery. Accept this. It’s just the way it is. The end.

So it makes complete sense they landed on a near identical design. It’s a good design. Get over it and expect more copies to happen. It’s like team orders — it’s going to happen covertly or overtly whether you like it or not. The teams want to win and will do what’s necessary to win even if it pisses you off. Because they don’t really care about you, they care about winning. That’s why team bosses lie to the public all the time. It’s a circus, remember?

Aero facts don’t care about your feelings, and the team will follow the facts to win regardless how you feel about it, gladiator style. This is love and war. Winner takes all. Second is first loser. Don’t kid yourself thinking they care if you care they copied.

The more you gripe and complain about their actions, or motives, or plagiarisms, the more distracted you’ll become and the less fun you’ll have - and they still won’t care, and you will have less fun. They keep winning and you keep losing. So by appreciating the impossibleness of it all, it becomes so much easier to swallow and so much more fun to watch.

Try and see this as a novelty and how righteous it would be to have another car at the sharp end this year. That would be awesome. They certainly were not going to be competitive in the monstrosity they had, and how cool —how novel— would it be to see AM take Red Bull to school with the design? I’m not saying that will happen, and likely it won’t happe, but now it *could* happen, and so it’s righteously novel. It also would be nice to see old man Vettel have a competitive car again, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

Hats off to AM and what they are doing to try and win. I hope they do well even tho I think Stroll is a $hit driver and should not be in F1.
Copy one persons work and its plagiarism, copy everyone's and its called research?
Incorporating what you see into your designs is fine. Stealing someone's designs to make the same thing in exactly the same way is another.

Now what I see when I look at AMR is something that looks similar but is not identical to RBR, This is unlike the pink Merc from that stand point.

Think Horner is just trying to keep people looking at images of his car for the sponsors.

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JordanMugen
66
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: Aston Martin AMR22

Post

Chuckjr wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 8:02 am
Hats off to AM and what they are doing to try and win. I hope they do well even tho I think Stroll is a $hit driver and should not be in F1.
Stroll is a fine driver with multiple podiums, I think Stroll is the least of AM's problems. I don't think Stroll would have three podiums in F1 if Stroll was incompetent. :)

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Zynerji
107
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Aston Martin AMR22

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JordanMugen wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 4:16 am
Chuckjr wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 8:02 am
Hats off to AM and what they are doing to try and win. I hope they do well even tho I think Stroll is a $hit driver and should not be in F1.
Stroll is a fine driver with multiple podiums, I think Stroll is the least of AM's problems. I don't think Stroll would have three podiums in F1 if Stroll was incompetent. :)
I'm soooooo glad to see someone give that young man his due respect here! 🥰🥰

NAPI10
NAPI10
13
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: 2022 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Car has a decent race pace.As team understands the package better; expect a good show.

There is a blessing in disguise from this poor 'quali & race' performance; talk of 'Green Redbull' has dialed down considerably.AM can focus on building this package from next race onwards.

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diffuser
154
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: 2022 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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NAPI10 wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 3:59 pm
Car has a decent race pace.As team understands the package better; expect a good show.

There is a blessing in disguise from this poor 'quali & race' performance; talk of 'Green Redbull' has dialed down considerably.AM can focus on building this package from next race onwards.
It's gonna be hard. Look how much running they did in the preseason, 6 x 8 hr days. How many races is it gonna take to make that up?

Maybe, they don't need half that time cause they already have some knowledge. Still think it's gonna take a few races.

That Green RedBull stuff was just Horner trying to milk publicity for his car. You can see there are clear differences in the designs.

NAPI10
NAPI10
13
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: 2022 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

Post

B-Spec started showing its potential or it's just Seb's brilliance at his favorite track?

F1doc
F1doc
8
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:09 am

Re: 2022 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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NAPI10 wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 3:54 pm
B-Spec started showing its potential or it's just Seb's brilliance at his favorite track?
I suspect Seb is over-performing and Lance is under-performing to account for the Q3 Vs Q1 discrepancy.

NAPI10
NAPI10
13
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:08 pm

Re: 2022 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

Post

F1doc wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 3:58 pm
NAPI10 wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 3:54 pm
B-Spec started showing its potential or it's just Seb's brilliance at his favorite track?
I suspect Seb is over-performing and Lance is under-performing to account for the Q3 Vs Q1 discrepancy.
That's the reason, I support AM.
Seb has so much to offer to F1; give him a good car [-o< [-o<