Anti-lag systems

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
mrluke
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Re: Anti-lag systems

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Airshifter wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:48 am
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:21 pm
Airshifter wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:32 pm


But without some type of anti lag system, possibly at the expense of boost not always being available in the amounts desired.

And in either case it would involve a lot of fuel and ignition mapping changes. Changing one complexity for another doesn't really meet their cost concerns.
On road cars, twin scroll turbos produce boost at 1200RPM compared to the 3000RPM of a single scroll.

As long as they use a twin scroll, there should not be appreciable lag whilst braking against throttle. I do, however, encourage the VNT tech, as development in that area could realistically influence the continued downsizing of turbo-petrol engines in road cars as we transition to full EV.
But once again, adding complexity for the sake of overcoming a different complexity.

Getting rid of the MGU-H creates the need to recover what is lost, but if they go back to the equal level of complexity, what's the point? Quite a few anti lag setups are fairly simple to implement at this level.

I'm not opposed to either solution, but they have to decide what they are changing the regs for and what the end goal is. Variable geometry and twin scroll both have costs probably more than anti lag systems, but in the overall scheme of things none are all that much. WIth increased electrical energy available, there might not be a need for any of the above really.
Twin scroll is a no-brainer. There's not really any complexity, its just two feeds into the turbine housing. There's no moving parts to it.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Anti-lag systems

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The MGUH might become a MUK for the compressor side. Should be much simpler.
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Zynerji
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Re: Anti-lag systems

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:35 pm
The MGUH might become a MUK for the compressor side. Should be much simpler.
Oddly, I believe the MGUH to be the coolest tech in F1 right now. The costs imply that the lack of knowledge and understanding that we had as an engineering collective was astonishing.

I still like the idea of using the MGUH directly on a Turbo-Jet pulse-jet setup, where the combustion cycle happens with no moving parts, and drives the MGUH to power an EV drive train.

I know lots of ppl don't like that idea, but to have EV torque/control in a 500kg car with no battery, and the visceral jet engine noise as it laps a track seems like it would be a fan favorite.

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godlameroso
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Re: Anti-lag systems

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:56 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:35 pm
The MGUH might become a MUK for the compressor side. Should be much simpler.
Oddly, I believe the MGUH to be the coolest tech in F1 right now. The costs imply that the lack of knowledge and understanding that we had as an engineering collective was astonishing.

I still like the idea of using the MGUH directly on a Turbo-Jet pulse-jet setup, where the combustion cycle happens with no moving parts, and drives the MGUH to power an EV drive train.

I know lots of ppl don't like that idea, but to have EV torque/control in a 500kg car with no battery, and the visceral jet engine noise as it laps a track seems like it would be a fan favorite.
The MGU-H is probably the most expensive part of the power unit, full stop.
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Anti-lag systems

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:21 pm
On road cars, twin scroll turbos produce boost at 1200RPM compared to the 3000RPM of a single scroll.....
isn't twin scroll used with non-turbo-friendly engine configurations and not with turbo-friendly ones ?

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Zynerji
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Re: Anti-lag systems

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:25 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:56 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:35 pm
The MGUH might become a MUK for the compressor side. Should be much simpler.
Oddly, I believe the MGUH to be the coolest tech in F1 right now. The costs imply that the lack of knowledge and understanding that we had as an engineering collective was astonishing.

I still like the idea of using the MGUH directly on a Turbo-Jet pulse-jet setup, where the combustion cycle happens with no moving parts, and drives the MGUH to power an EV drive train.

I know lots of ppl don't like that idea, but to have EV torque/control in a 500kg car with no battery, and the visceral jet engine noise as it laps a track seems like it would be a fan favorite.
The MGU-H is probably the most expensive part of the power unit, full stop.
At a certain point, it's just a turbo and an electric motor. It's the tuning of the blades to the combustion chamber that is expensive. Horner was clear about that in the past.
Last edited by Zynerji on Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Zynerji
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Re: Anti-lag systems

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:43 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:21 pm
On road cars, twin scroll turbos produce boost at 1200RPM compared to the 3000RPM of a single scroll.....
isn't twin scroll used with non-turbo-friendly engine configurations and not with turbo-friendly ones ?
I mean, 2014 BMW engines ran them. It was all about boosting earlier in the RPM range, and throttle response according to their trainings that I received when I fixed a Dealership that year.

L6 configuration can have 3 ports per scroll, and have peaks every 120 degrees, so it's super smooth on boost.

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godlameroso
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Re: Anti-lag systems

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:55 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:25 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:56 pm


Oddly, I believe the MGUH to be the coolest tech in F1 right now. The costs imply that the lack of knowledge and understanding that we had as an engineering collective was astonishing.

I still like the idea of using the MGUH directly on a Turbo-Jet pulse-jet setup, where the combustion cycle happens with no moving parts, and drives the MGUH to power an EV drive train.

I know lots of ppl don't like that idea, but to have EV torque/control in a 500kg car with no battery, and the visceral jet engine noise as it laps a track seems like it would be a fan favorite.
The MGU-H is probably the most expensive part of the power unit, full stop.
At a certain point, it's just a turbo and an electric motor. It's the tuning of the blades to the combustion chamber that is expensive. Horner was clear about that in the past.
The MGU-H was supposed to nullify the need for VGNT's but then instead of spending money on the system, they spent even more money on the turbine blade geometry.
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Zynerji
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Re: Anti-lag systems

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:17 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:55 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:25 pm


The MGU-H is probably the most expensive part of the power unit, full stop.
At a certain point, it's just a turbo and an electric motor. It's the tuning of the blades to the combustion chamber that is expensive. Horner was clear about that in the past.
The MGU-H was supposed to nullify the need for VGNT's but then instead of spending money on the system, they spent even more money on the turbine blade geometry.
Well, I believe the most money was spent perfecting combustion and airflow in and out of the system. Tuning every part in the chain is expensive, and upgrades do not work in isolation.

I don't think the electric motor on a shaft was the multi-million dollar r&d sink. Maximizing the air in and out around it optimally was.
Last edited by Zynerji on Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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godlameroso
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Re: Anti-lag systems

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Indeed.
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NL_Fer
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Re: Anti-lag systems

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Hoe much fuel does an anti-lag use?

Can antilag be used with cilinders deactivated to save fuel?

Jolle
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Re: Anti-lag systems

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I just saw an YouTube video flash by of a system I forgot was used in WRC, Ford (because they raced with the famous air restrictor), build a big titanium tank behind the rear bumper to store acces boost, to give a bit of extra air for a few seconds.

call it an pneumatic energy recovery system, PERS for short...

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Zynerji
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Re: Anti-lag systems

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NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:29 am
Hoe much fuel does an anti-lag use?

Can antilag be used with cilinders deactivated to save fuel?
They could inject fuel but cut spark and cause the mixture to ignite in the exhaust directly, or they can delay spark until the exhaust valve opens and get a similar heat spike to increase turbo RPM. I believe other categories use the spark timing more often to keep EGT down. I've read it can also be sparked early (on the upstroke) on lean burn engines as a form of engine breaking, but that would be brutal on components in my opinion.

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Airshifter
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Re: Anti-lag systems

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mrluke wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:36 pm
Airshifter wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:48 am
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:21 pm


On road cars, twin scroll turbos produce boost at 1200RPM compared to the 3000RPM of a single scroll.

As long as they use a twin scroll, there should not be appreciable lag whilst braking against throttle. I do, however, encourage the VNT tech, as development in that area could realistically influence the continued downsizing of turbo-petrol engines in road cars as we transition to full EV.
But once again, adding complexity for the sake of overcoming a different complexity.

Getting rid of the MGU-H creates the need to recover what is lost, but if they go back to the equal level of complexity, what's the point? Quite a few anti lag setups are fairly simple to implement at this level.

I'm not opposed to either solution, but they have to decide what they are changing the regs for and what the end goal is. Variable geometry and twin scroll both have costs probably more than anti lag systems, but in the overall scheme of things none are all that much. WIth increased electrical energy available, there might not be a need for any of the above really.
Twin scroll is a no-brainer. There's not really any complexity, its just two feeds into the turbine housing. There's no moving parts to it.
For F1 though, packaging, scavenging optimization, two wastegates, etc would all come into the picture. More than anything a space issue, and though revs are down vs previous years I don't know if they would save money in the long run. Taken to extremes as F1 does, it would become the new MGU-H of finding those small percentages to satisfy the entire rev range.

As has been stated by others, F1 turned the MGU-H into something more complex, proving how little hard knowledge on it was out there. I think they would do the same with variable or twin scroll to some extent.

Anti lag takes little in terms of development. For that matter they would drive the turbo without harvesting from it, using the electrical energy.

As I've said, I'm not opposed to which direction they do, but with cost cutting measures in place it might suggest a less expensive development process. Twin scroll hurdles aren't hard to overcome in street builds, but seem to have a much lesser advantage at higher outputs compared to single scrolls, and at F1 revs they might lose top end performance for the sake of low end ICE performance when they already have electrical energy to help overcome that small windows of low rev boost problems.

gruntguru
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Re: Anti-lag systems

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AFAIK all F1 engines have twin scroll turbine housings already.
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