Mercedes W13

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bosyber
bosyber
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:28 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:40 am


Why? Because they are still having the same problems? Because Verstappen and Sainz were still able to gain 0,8 secs. per lap in Canada? And their developement, i am sorry, totally supports what i said. Floor stiffening with a second bracket, drag reduction and more outwash was the goal with a lot of their developements. And sorry again - all teams now go with big sidepods. What only leaves three possibilities- all other teams are wrong and Mercedes is right. All the other teams are incapable and only Mercedes is capable(as they are the only ones who can makes these sidepods work...one day maybe).- or all the other teams are right and Mercedes is wrong. What i think is the more likely option with Red Bull and Ferrari being far ahead in terms of pace with their big-sidepods.
AM have the Red Bull type sidepods and can't get out of Q1 this weekend - Williams have got through to Q3 with their micro-pod but their Red Bull ramp design didn't get out of Q1. The sidepod design is not the defining issue with these cars - there are basically three sidepod designs in the top of the grid - Red Bull's long slope, Ferrari's "big dish", Mercedes's micro-pods.

Mercedes's problem is not caused by their choice of sidepod design, it's a combination of the underfloor and the suspension. They have been working on the underfloor as evidenced by the changes at Silverstone. Suspension is a more involved issue to sort mid season.
This really should be in the race, or car comparison thread, but let's not judge aero concepts on who got out of Q1 today; it was as much timing of getting a solid to good lap in as anything else, apart from having a top car which enabled one to be quite secure, but even then, huge progression in laptimes on the order of seconds between runs of each car. That's really not about which spec of the car ran today.

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Shrieker
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Big Tea wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:48 am
Shrieker wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:20 am
Naaah, nothing a little bit of glue can't handle.
I think one of the commentary guys said Alpine used tape on theirs.
I'm not surprised to be honest :P With the budget cap, think we're gonna see more and more of these sorts of 'solutions'.

What happens on the other hand tho, if something fixed in this way fails, and causes a crash or something 🤔
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Andi76
Andi76
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:28 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:40 am


Why? Because they are still having the same problems? Because Verstappen and Sainz were still able to gain 0,8 secs. per lap in Canada? And their developement, i am sorry, totally supports what i said. Floor stiffening with a second bracket, drag reduction and more outwash was the goal with a lot of their developements. And sorry again - all teams now go with big sidepods. What only leaves three possibilities- all other teams are wrong and Mercedes is right. All the other teams are incapable and only Mercedes is capable(as they are the only ones who can makes these sidepods work...one day maybe).- or all the other teams are right and Mercedes is wrong. What i think is the more likely option with Red Bull and Ferrari being far ahead in terms of pace with their big-sidepods.
AM have the Red Bull type sidepods and can't get out of Q1 this weekend - Williams have got through to Q3 with their micro-pod but their Red Bull ramp design didn't get out of Q1. The sidepod design is not the defining issue with these cars - there are basically three sidepod designs in the top of the grid - Red Bull's long slope, Ferrari's "big dish", Mercedes's micro-pods.

Mercedes's problem is not caused by their choice of sidepod design, it's a combination of the underfloor and the suspension. They have been working on the underfloor as evidenced by the changes at Silverstone. Suspension is a more involved issue to sort mid season.
You can deny whats obvious, but that does not change the fact that this design has obvious shortcomings. CFD has clearly shown the problems with the front wheel wake, what indeed makes the sidepod design more important than ever. Especially with the bargeboards missing. And with all the teams having changed their sidepod design now - all teams and F1 engineers obviously do not agree with you. I could start all over again and explain everything again and how all of Mercedes issues can be related to the sidepod design. But it senseless anyway. When F1 as a whole goes in the opposite direction and someone is still claiming the sidepods, are not their problem - its just senseless. But one thing is for sure - a F1 Team does not drastically change their sidepod design without finding big advantages in the windtunnel. So you can turn it however you want - the zerpod design is not the way to go with this regulary. And definetely a disadvantage and an inferior design.

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ringo
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Re: Mercedes W13

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No. CFD hasn't showed anything substaintial in my opionion. Once there was no quoting of force numbers.
The actual numbers need to be quoted for the CFD to be acceptable. In addition, the models were not accurate.

I am ammused when it is said the sidepods push the air away from the wheels, but yet it is not considered that the act of the sidepods changing the flow path of the air itself is not creating drag, almost as much as the wheel would.
And this is why I say the CFD needs to be supported by the results of the normal forces on the car. So I take them with a pinch of salt.

Anyhow as said before in this topic, the cars that switched to bigger sidepods, now don't magically have 0.8s per lap or much higher top speed. Mercedes is still faster than all except redbull and ferrari. So why didn't the superior sidepod designs move those cars further up the grid?
Why is Alpine still slower than Mercerdes, and yet their car is the closest on Pace. Why were they outqualified by Mclaren? Where is Aston Martin Martin, Williams and Torro Rosso?

Mercedes have admitted to focusing on aero now and will focus on the suspension later to control the aero platform.
Then we will see much improvement in the pace. Today proves that even with the same bodywork but new floor, they are getting closer to the front.
For Sure!!

TimW
TimW
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Re: Mercedes W13

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When you consider McLaren and Williams similar to Mercedes, you're missing one big point. Mercedes have this big 'mirror support' flow conditioner wing there.
McLaren and Williams could not copy Mercedes, because that requires a different placement of the side impact structure. So the only way they to get more flow conditioning is bigger sidepods.
Mercedes can easily go big sidepods, the step from Barcelona pre season is just some bodywork. But they did not, so they must see a benefit of the current design.
Last edited by TimW on Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jagunx51
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Re: Mercedes W13

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https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/merce ... /10331588/
Mercedes not ruling out future switch to Red Bull F1 car concept
Mercedes has not ruled out switching to Red Bull's Formula 1 car concept for next year as it evaluates how best to make a leap forward with its 2023 challenger.
But with more and more teams copying rival Red Bull’s sidepod solution, suggesting it is the best way forward, Mercedes has made clear that it is not arrogant enough to dismiss following suit itself.

While it does not believe the answer to its woes lies in simply switching to Red Bull’s sidepod solution, it says it is evaluating what the Milton Keynes-based team has done to try to understand if there are wider benefits to it.

Asked by Autosport about the possibility of a shift to the Red Bull concept, Mercedes technical director Mike Elliott said: “I think the bodywork, the bit that is visibly different, that you're referring to, is probably not the key differentiator if you'd like. It's the detail in the floor design.

“We've evaluated some of the concepts in that direction. I'm not going to say which way we're going to go, but we will look at that [Red Bull solution].
............!!!!

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W13

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jagunx51 wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:36 am
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/merce ... /10331588/
Mercedes not ruling out future switch to Red Bull F1 car concept
Mercedes has not ruled out switching to Red Bull's Formula 1 car concept for next year as it evaluates how best to make a leap forward with its 2023 challenger.
But with more and more teams copying rival Red Bull’s sidepod solution, suggesting it is the best way forward, Mercedes has made clear that it is not arrogant enough to dismiss following suit itself.

While it does not believe the answer to its woes lies in simply switching to Red Bull’s sidepod solution, it says it is evaluating what the Milton Keynes-based team has done to try to understand if there are wider benefits to it.

Asked by Autosport about the possibility of a shift to the Red Bull concept, Mercedes technical director Mike Elliott said: “I think the bodywork, the bit that is visibly different, that you're referring to, is probably not the key differentiator if you'd like. It's the detail in the floor design.

“We've evaluated some of the concepts in that direction. I'm not going to say which way we're going to go, but we will look at that [Red Bull solution].
He specifically states that it's the floor design that is the key area and the thing they're looking at, and the journalist says "they're looking at copying the Red Bull concept". Poor, lazy, inaccurate journalism - exactly what is to be expected these days, sadly.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

PhillipM
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Bit of a stretch there, yes, definately - every team evaluates rival cars designs, it's part of your development, doesn't mean you're even considering it, just checking to see what their setup does different and if there's anything you can learn from/apply to your own.

Andi76
Andi76
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Re: Mercedes W13

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TimW wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:34 am
When you consider McLaren and Williams similar to Mercedes, you're missing one big point. Mercedes have this big 'wing support' flow conditioner there.
McLaren and Williams could not copy Mercedes, because that requires a different placement of the side impact structure. So the only way they to get more flow conditioning is bigger sidepods.
Mercedes can easily go big sidepods, the step from Barcelona pre season is just some bodywork. But they did not, so they must see a benefit of the current design.
Mercedes cannot go easily to big sidepods. Their sidepod-inlets go all the way down the floor. They would have to change their cooling system and packaging and aero completely, as they would lack even more outwash(what already is one of the problems).We already had that several times here and it was explained why its not possible and even makes no sense.

If the journalists who say Mercedes will "copy" Red Bulls sidepod design are right or wrong - no one can say that. But one thing is for sure i think - Mercedes would never admit that they are throwing their zeropods away. This would mean that they admit in public that its inferior. And they will never do that. But as all F1-Teams are going in the opposite direction-and they definetely do this because its a disadvantage - i highly doubt Mercedes will not follow this direction with their new car. But thats something we will only be able to see in February 2023. If the new Mercedes still has zeropods and is faster than the competition - i will apologise and admit that i was wrong(not when they stay with them and are still significantly slower). If Mercedes has changed to "big-pods" - what i expect them to do - i will remind you of these discussions.
Last edited by Andi76 on Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jagunx51
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Re: Mercedes W13

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I think RB18 front suspension is something other teams should consider too
............!!!!

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Andi76 wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:24 am
TimW wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:34 am
When you consider McLaren and Williams similar to Mercedes, you're missing one big point. Mercedes have this big 'wing support' flow conditioner there.
McLaren and Williams could not copy Mercedes, because that requires a different placement of the side impact structure. So the only way they to get more flow conditioning is bigger sidepods.
Mercedes can easily go big sidepods, the step from Barcelona pre season is just some bodywork. But they did not, so they must see a benefit of the current design.
Mercedes cannot go easily to big sidepods. Their sidepod-inlets go all the way down the floor. They would have to change their cooling system and packaging and aero completely, as they would lack even more outwash(what already is one of the problems).We already had that several times here and it was explained why its not possible and even makes no sense.
Are you conveniently forgetting that they ran a car with the more common high cooling inlets earlier this season?
Image

They can run high cooling inlets again if they wanted to, and they could have high sidepods tops too, if they wanted to. The sidepods would be mostly empty volume and would be nothing more than an aero-skin, but they could do it if they wanted to.

Mercedes is the one team that can go to the other sidepod extreme - Red Bull and Ferrari can't go to micro-pods because their sidepods are full of kit which would have to be moved. Mercedes can just build big sidepod shells if they want to with no real issue.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W13

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jagunx51 wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:24 am
I think RB18 front suspension is something other teams should consider too
And their potentially illegal floor installation, too. :wink:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

morefirejules08
morefirejules08
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:01 am
Andi76 wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:24 am
TimW wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:34 am
When you consider McLaren and Williams similar to Mercedes, you're missing one big point. Mercedes have this big 'wing support' flow conditioner there.
McLaren and Williams could not copy Mercedes, because that requires a different placement of the side impact structure. So the only way they to get more flow conditioning is bigger sidepods.
Mercedes can easily go big sidepods, the step from Barcelona pre season is just some bodywork. But they did not, so they must see a benefit of the current design.
Mercedes cannot go easily to big sidepods. Their sidepod-inlets go all the way down the floor. They would have to change their cooling system and packaging and aero completely, as they would lack even more outwash(what already is one of the problems).We already had that several times here and it was explained why its not possible and even makes no sense.
Are you conveniently forgetting that they ran a car with the more common high cooling inlets earlier this season?
https://i.imgur.com/NESgzRr.png

They can run high cooling inlets again if they wanted to, and they could have high sidepods tops too, if they wanted to. The sidepods would be mostly empty volume and would be nothing more than an aero-skin, but they could do it if they wanted to.

Mercedes is the one team that can go to the other sidepod extreme - Red Bull and Ferrari can't go to micro-pods because their sidepods are full of kit which would have to be moved. Mercedes can just build big sidepod shells if they want to with no real issue.
I seem to recall Shov saying earlier in the season that Mercedes could easily fit any other teams aero concept around their car.

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214270
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Re: Mercedes W13

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At this point I hope they stick with it. There’s an interesting opportunity opening up to lock in some extended winning if they manage to get on top of all their troubles. As the competition all converge around a similar concept, being the alternative (which would be difficult to again pivot towards) might be extremely beneficial as the seasons roll on.
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christian.falavena
christian.falavena
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Image Look at that flow starting from the floor and going up thowards the rear wheel, every car had it yesterday, what's its benefit?