Mercedes W13

[101FlyingDutchman]

The top lip of the diffuser on the W13 is basically flat i.e. no up turn. The lip on the RB18 appears to have a large up turn which must surely interact with the beam wing more effectively. Is this an example of Red Bull sacrificing diffuser volume for better overall effectiveness? They were masters of it in the previous rule set and others followed them. I wonder if Mercedes will do something similar next season.

Perhaps it's another little piece in the non-porpoising design that Red Bull managed to produce this year.

Especially after TD39 the car seems perfectly balanced. It doesn’t need to produce more peak downforce. As a total guess it produces say 98% of the downforce the Ferrari generates however it does it for a far lesser drag penalty and seems stable through a large ride height setup window without massively tailing off

[Zynerji]

I legitimately do not think the problem is Aero at Mercedes. I think they got hammered by the loss of the hydraulic platform control of the previous seasons. If all of your recent suspension design R&D folders are filled with compromised designs that the hydraulic system mitigated, your last real experience would be 2013, and that's years behind others in data.

It's all about the contact patch control at Merc.

[georgekyr]

I legitimately do not think the problem is Aero at Mercedes. I think they got hammered by the loss of the hydraulic platform control of the previous seasons. If all of your recent suspension design R&D folders are filled with compromised designs that the hydraulic system mitigated, your last real experience would be 2013, and that's years behind others in data.

It's all about the contact patch control at Merc.

While I agree with you about the suspension being the biggest challenge of W13, Merc abandoned the hydraulic system 2 seasons back and migrated to a mechanical one to be prepared. But there was a big number of innovations that were outlawed in the new set of regulations most of which were developed by Merc. The below article in essence was spot on. Merc did not manage for me to surpass all the challenges mentioned in it concerning W13's suspension.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 4bp8j.html

[Zynerji]

I legitimately do not think the problem is Aero at Mercedes. I think they got hammered by the loss of the hydraulic platform control of the previous seasons. If all of your recent suspension design R&D folders are filled with compromised designs that the hydraulic system mitigated, your last real experience would be 2013, and that's years behind others in data.

It's all about the contact patch control at Merc.

While I agree with you about the suspension being the biggest challenge of W13, Merc abandoned the hydraulic system 2 seasons back and migrated to a mechanical one to be prepared. But there was a big number of innovations that were outlawed in the new set of regulations most of which were developed by Merc. The below article in essence was spot on. Merc did not manage for me to surpass all the challenges mentioned in it concerning W13's suspension.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 4bp8j.html

Merc just switched their heave springs to mechanical. I believe the corners were still hydraulic.

Watch any 2021 race with a chicane. They almost float over them...

[PlatinumZealot]

I legitimately do not think the problem is Aero at Mercedes. I think they got hammered by the loss of the hydraulic platform control of the previous seasons. If all of your recent suspension design R&D folders are filled with compromised designs that the hydraulic system mitigated, your last real experience would be 2013, and that's years behind others in data.

It's all about the contact patch control at Merc.

It is aero. The car has to run a lower ride than competitors to be fast.

[mantikos]

I legitimately do not think the problem is Aero at Mercedes. I think they got hammered by the loss of the hydraulic platform control of the previous seasons. If all of your recent suspension design R&D folders are filled with compromised designs that the hydraulic system mitigated, your last real experience would be 2013, and that's years behind others in data.

It's all about the contact patch control at Merc.

This is my guestimate as well - they screwed up suspension since they were amongst the most advanced in hydraulics and that got nixed

[Zynerji]

I legitimately do not think the problem is Aero at Mercedes. I think they got hammered by the loss of the hydraulic platform control of the previous seasons. If all of your recent suspension design R&D folders are filled with compromised designs that the hydraulic system mitigated, your last real experience would be 2013, and that's years behind others in data.

It's all about the contact patch control at Merc.

It is aero. The car has to run a lower ride than competitors to be fast.

I disagree. But that is the best part of these forums! We can speculate. And I put tyre temp control as the main issue, and that's suspension control for sure.

[PlatinumZealot]

I legitimately do not think the problem is Aero at Mercedes. I think they got hammered by the loss of the hydraulic platform control of the previous seasons. If all of your recent suspension design R&D folders are filled with compromised designs that the hydraulic system mitigated, your last real experience would be 2013, and that's years behind others in data.

It's all about the contact patch control at Merc.

It is aero. The car has to run a lower ride than competitors to be fast.

I disagree. But that is the best part of these forums! We can speculate. And I put tyre temp control as the main issue, and that's suspension control for sure.

The engineers set up the car for when the tyres are warm though so what you are seeing in the race is the best of the car. Tyre heat won't solve the deficit.

[Zynerji]

It is aero. The car has to run a lower ride than competitors to be fast.

I disagree. But that is the best part of these forums! We can speculate. And I put tyre temp control as the main issue, and that's suspension control for sure.

The engineers set up the car for when the tyres are warm though so what you are seeing in the race is the best of the car. Tyre heat won't solve the deficit.

I never said tyre heat, I said temperature control. The kinematics of the suspension and the reactive forces through all modes generate different wavelets that determine the interface of the tyre and the circuit. This harmonic is solely controlled by the suspension, and is responsible for the temperature of the tyre at any given phase of operation.

[PlatinumZealot]

That's overthinking it though. The aero just sucks. And not in a good way!

[organic]

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -singapur/

Small updates for the end of the season

Seems the W13 will not remain unchanged according to AMuS. Will be interesting to see if they can handle the bumps at singapore - surely all the learning about the car will pay off at some point

For the last races of the season, Mercedes will continue to equip the Silver Arrow with new parts. Albeit on a small scale. "The greater advances come from understanding," the team continues. In the remainder of the program there doesn't seem to be a track that should throw the Mercedes completely out of step. "Maybe Austin suits us just fine," Russell looks ahead

[clownfish]

Can anyone offer any thoughts on the car's tyre behaviours in terms of difficulty getting temperature in/having low deg?

I wondered if maybe they are running higher pressures in an attempt to eliminate the undamped spring effect from the tyres to help control porpoising, and therefore putting less heat in as a side effect.

[marcel171281]

Can anyone offer any thoughts on the car's tyre behaviours in terms of difficulty getting temperature in/having low deg?

I wondered if maybe they are running higher pressures in an attempt to eliminate the undamped spring effect from the tyres to help control porpoising, and therefore putting less heat in as a side effect.

I don't believe they have difficulty to get temp in the tyres, otherwise they wouldn't get the hard tyres to work so easily in Zandvoort for instance. From the outlap on they were quick in that stint.

There are two forms of deg. Wear, the most obvious, but also thermal deg. The latter is the change in chemical composition of the rubber due too long or over exposure to (too) high temps. I believe the Mercedes is very good at the latter, which means they are good in controlling tyre core temps on long stints.

Getting temp in the tyres initially and keeping the core temps under control are not necessarily connected as one has mostly to do with surface temps and the other with core temps.

This also indicated that the suspension of the Mercedes is not the issue this year. On the contrary, I believe it is their strongest point.

[organic]

Can anyone offer any thoughts on the car's tyre behaviours in terms of difficulty getting temperature in/having low deg?

I wondered if maybe they are running higher pressures in an attempt to eliminate the undamped spring effect from the tyres to help control porpoising, and therefore putting less heat in as a side effect.

I don't believe they have difficulty to get temp in the tyres, otherwise they wouldn't get the hard tyres to work so easily in Zandvoort for instance. Form the outlap on they were quick in that stint.

There are two forms of deg. Wear, the most obvious, but also thermal deg. The latter is the change in chemical composition of the rubber due too long or over exposure to (too) high temps. I believe the Mercedes is very good at the latter, which means they are good in controlling tyre core temps on long stints.

Getting temp in the tyres initially and keeping the peak temps under control are not necessarily connected as one has mostly to do with surface temps and the other with core temps.

This also indicated that the suspension of the Mercedes is not the issue this year. On the contrary, I believe it is their strongest point.

Zandvoort is an outlier to be honest. It has extremely high load on the tyres due to the banking and other cars that usually struggle to make the tyres work in qualifying could also get enough temperature eg AMR. Merc have had a tyre temperature issue for a long time. Not just all of 2022 bar Hungary and Zandvoort, but in 2021 as well. It's something fundamental to their philosophy I am supposing

[AR3-GP]

Can anyone offer any thoughts on the car's tyre behaviours in terms of difficulty getting temperature in/having low deg?

I wondered if maybe they are running higher pressures in an attempt to eliminate the undamped spring effect from the tyres to help control porpoising, and therefore putting less heat in as a side effect.

I don't believe they have difficulty to get temp in the tyres, otherwise they wouldn't get the hard tyres to work so easily in Zandvoort for instance. Form the outlap on they were quick in that stint.

There are two forms of deg. Wear, the most obvious, but also thermal deg. The latter is the change in chemical composition of the rubber due too long or over exposure to (too) high temps. I believe the Mercedes is very good at the latter, which means they are good in controlling tyre core temps on long stints.

Getting temp in the tyres initially and keeping the peak temps under control are not necessarily connected as one has mostly to do with surface temps and the other with core temps.

This also indicated that the suspension of the Mercedes is not the issue this year. On the contrary, I believe it is their strongest point.

Zandvoort is an outlier to be honest. It has extremely high load on the tyres due to the banking. Merc have had a tyre temperature issue for a long time. Not just all of 2022 bar Hungary and Zandvoort, but in 2021 as well. It's something fundamental to their philosophy I am supposing

It goes back even further. That's why they had devices like the rim heating and DAS.