Mercedes W13

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
VacuousFlamboyant
VacuousFlamboyant
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Re: Mercedes W13

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OO7 wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:58 am
10kg is roughly worth four tenths per lap around a typical circuit right?
It depends on the track, how the car behaves with those extra kilos and the added tyre degration. Engineers often say something between 0.033s to 0.133s per kg each lap. On average 0.067 seconds per lap. When referring to the lower figure as a base, you could be looking at 0.3s-0.6s.

Hamilton keeps saying the car is roughtly 1s slower than what it could be, though that seems a bit of a stretch. Altough, you never know.

smith100s
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Any indications yet on the respective weight of the other leading cars?

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chrisc90
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Re: Mercedes W13

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VacuousFlamboyant wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:57 pm
OO7 wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:58 am
10kg is roughly worth four tenths per lap around a typical circuit right?
It depends on the track, how the car behaves with those extra kilos and the added tyre degration. Engineers often say something between 0.033s to 0.133s per kg each lap. On average 0.067 seconds per lap. When referring to the lower figure as a base, you could be looking at 0.3s-0.6s.

Hamilton keeps saying the car is roughtly 1s slower than what it could be, though that seems a bit of a stretch. Altough, you never know.
Certainly a interesting number to come out with. I mean 1 second would probably swap the gap they are behind to being infront by the same amount.

It could be some correlation issues with the simulator - but id imagine they would have ironed that out by now. It would be interesting to know where this 1 second is being lost in the races that have gone by as that's a monstrous amount of time to be losing.

If they see 1 second potential in the W13 - they will have no issue with carrying the concept over onto the W14 - and now is around the area where they need to be making decisions on next year according to Toto - due to the longer lead time of some parts.

Does anyone know if there are any more planned updates coming for the W13? At this stage in the season, if they are still bringing updates - it probably means they still believe in the concept - as it would be pointless spending good money on updating a concept they dont have any interesting is carrying over to the following year.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W13

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chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:22 pm

Does anyone know if there are any more planned updates coming for the W13? At this stage in the season, if they are still bringing updates - it probably means they still believe in the concept - as it would be pointless spending good money on updating a concept they dont have any interesting is carrying over to the following year.
However, a lack of updates wouldn't automatically mean they are dropping the concept next year. With the cost cap, you have to decide when to switch your limited resources between seasons. Also, some updates might be performance enhancing but invisible to the external observer, e.g. a lighter chassis. Merc has said that they are 10kg overweight and haven't been able to reduce it this year because of the cost cap. That could well be a key us of funds going forward as a 10kg drop in mass is a benefit right across the performance envelope.
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Arcanum
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Re: Mercedes W13

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VacuousFlamboyant wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:57 pm
OO7 wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:58 am
10kg is roughly worth four tenths per lap around a typical circuit right?
It depends on the track, how the car behaves with those extra kilos and the added tyre degration. Engineers often say something between 0.033s to 0.133s per kg each lap. On average 0.067 seconds per lap. When referring to the lower figure as a base, you could be looking at 0.3s-0.6s.

Hamilton keeps saying the car is roughtly 1s slower than what it could be, though that seems a bit of a stretch. Altough, you never know.
So at the end of a race, a car that's used 80kg of fuel would be 5.36-seconds/lap faster than at the beginning of the race (80kg x 0.067 seconds per lap). Feels like a plausible number, though maybe a little high?

[obviously normalising for tyre compound, tyre wear, energy state, driving style, etc.]

VacuousFlamboyant
VacuousFlamboyant
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Arcanum wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:48 pm
VacuousFlamboyant wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:57 pm
OO7 wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:58 am
10kg is roughly worth four tenths per lap around a typical circuit right?
It depends on the track, how the car behaves with those extra kilos and the added tyre degration. Engineers often say something between 0.033s to 0.133s per kg each lap. On average 0.067 seconds per lap. When referring to the lower figure as a base, you could be looking at 0.3s-0.6s.

Hamilton keeps saying the car is roughtly 1s slower than what it could be, though that seems a bit of a stretch. Altough, you never know.
So at the end of a race, a car that's used 80kg of fuel would be 5.36-seconds/lap faster than at the beginning of the race (80kg x 0.067 seconds per lap). Feels like a plausible number, though maybe a little high?

[obviously normalising for tyre compound, tyre wear, energy state, driving style, etc.]
Yes, approximately. If someone were to go into the data the actual number should be a bit lower. The engineer I talked to in the paddock was very kind the share this kind of knowledge. The amount of rubber you have left carries more weight the more you progress in the race (pun intended :mrgreen: ). It means, the lighter the car, the more it can benefit from a weight reduction, until you hit a ceilling that has to do with mechanical grip, etc. There are outliers. Nevertheless, it's used as a rule of thumb.

Thus, you can place ballasts. I've read somewhere the weight reduction to Perez's car has allowed them to better suit the car to Perez in Singapore.

SmallSoldier
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Re: Mercedes W13

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W13’s Rear Multilink Suspension and Gearbox:

Image

Via: @n_mode_log

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Stu
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Re: Mercedes W13

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:02 pm
W13’s Rear Multilink Suspension and Gearbox:

https://i.imgur.com/4Z2ZDLK.jpg

Via: @n_mode_log
Top link looks to have two pivot points?
Or is the upper join between the two pivots the ARB?
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Stu wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:25 pm
SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:02 pm
W13’s Rear Multilink Suspension and Gearbox:

https://i.imgur.com/4Z2ZDLK.jpg

Via: @n_mode_log
Top link looks to have two pivot points?
Or is the upper join between the two pivots the ARB?
It's the connection point for the wheel tethers.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W13

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chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:22 pm


Does anyone know if there are any more planned updates coming for the W13?
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pursue_one's
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Re: Mercedes W13

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chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:22 pm
VacuousFlamboyant wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:57 pm
OO7 wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:58 am
10kg is roughly worth four tenths per lap around a typical circuit right?
It depends on the track, how the car behaves with those extra kilos and the added tyre degration. Engineers often say something between 0.033s to 0.133s per kg each lap. On average 0.067 seconds per lap. When referring to the lower figure as a base, you could be looking at 0.3s-0.6s.

Hamilton keeps saying the car is roughtly 1s slower than what it could be, though that seems a bit of a stretch. Altough, you never know.
Certainly a interesting number to come out with. I mean 1 second would probably swap the gap they are behind to being infront by the same amount.

It could be some correlation issues with the simulator - but id imagine they would have ironed that out by now. It would be interesting to know where this 1 second is being lost in the races that have gone by as that's a monstrous amount of time to be losing.

If they see 1 second potential in the W13 - they will have no issue with carrying the concept over onto the W14 - and now is around the area where they need to be making decisions on next year according to Toto - due to the longer lead time of some parts.

Does anyone know if there are any more planned updates coming for the W13? At this stage in the season, if they are still bringing updates - it probably means they still believe in the concept - as it would be pointless spending good money on updating a concept they dont have any interesting is carrying over to the following year.
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https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... apur-2022/

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ME4ME
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Re: Mercedes W13

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https://f1i.com/news/456072-mercedes-el ... stake.html
"You look at how we developed the car, and I can point to one moment in time last year where we did something where I think we made a mistake," Elliott explained.

"What you’re seeing in terms of performance and the way it swings from race to race as a consequence of that, and that’s a mistake we’ve known about for a while, and something we’ve been correcting and that’s why our performance has gradually got better.

"But it’s not something we can fully correct for a little while yet, and we will do over the winter."
Elliott did elaborate however on how Mercedes' aerodynamicist exploited a loophole in F1's new technical regulations to whip up their zero-sidepod concept.

"With a loophole, you go through the winter and you look at it and think ‘has anybody else spotted it, is someone else going to turn up with it?’," Elliot said.

"While it looks visually very different, as always with these things, it’s about opening up small aerodynamic advantages.

"Without going and running a development on the concept we’ve got, and running a development on a different concept, it’s hard to know what it will be worth at the end.
"But it wasn’t a huge game-changer, in the learning we’ve found this year, it’s less about the shape of the car, it’s more about the way we approach the development of the car, that’s where the difference lies.

"When you look at the sidepod, people say ‘it looks very different, that must work completely different to the rest of the cars’, and it doesn’t, it’s just a slightly different solution.

"Aerodynamically I don’t think it’s a massive departure from the other cars, it’s just something that adds a little bit of performance for us."

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Bittersweet news.

Good news is the car is quicker if it was as light as RedBull. Bad news is that the car rides poorly over the bumps even though it's heavier! Might ride even worse when lighter.
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Ozan
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Re: Mercedes W13

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"You look at how we developed the car, and I can point to one moment in time last year where we did something where I think we made a mistake," Elliott explained.

"What you’re seeing in terms of performance and the way it swings from race to race as a consequence of that, and that’s a mistake we’ve known about for a while, and something we’ve been correcting and that’s why our performance has gradually got better.

"But it’s not something we can fully correct for a little while yet, and we will do over the winter."
Elliott did elaborate however on how Mercedes' aerodynamicist exploited a loophole in F1's new technical regulations to whip up their zero-sidepod concept.

"With a loophole, you go through the winter and you look at it and think ‘has anybody else spotted it, is someone else going to turn up with it?’," Elliot said.

"While it looks visually very different, as always with these things, it’s about opening up small aerodynamic advantages.

"Without going and running a development on the concept we’ve got, and running a development on a different concept, it’s hard to know what it will be worth at the end.
so why hasn't the zero sidepod concept worked ?

smith100s
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Don't think the zero pod is the issue, i. Fact reading it back they feel thats helping. Seems they understand the issue but budget limitations prevent the fix and time dialing out the bouncing will have taken away from fine tuning the package they have. It must be a chassis or suspension choice they have made that's limiting this years car hence it will be fixed next year. Hopefully if they car get the weight out of it too for 23 then they will be at the pointy end fighting for wins 24 times a year.