Mercedes W13

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El_KaPpa
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Joined: 20 Feb 2013, 14:33

Re: Mercedes W13

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Of course I struggle. I just don’t quit.

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SiLo
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Joined: 25 Jul 2010, 19:09

Re: Mercedes W13

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AR3-GP wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 15:53
El_KaPpa wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 13:33
An interesting article in italian.

"Mercedes with Power Unit Phase 3 reinforced the crankshaft to improve reliability. This allowed better PU optimization and more aggressive maps while keeping good reliability.
Next step was taken in Mexico with new turbo management mapping, a change that allowed for better heat dissipation"

https://www.formu1a.uno/bahrain-brasile ... cedes-w13/
:? :lol:

F1's worst kept secret is that there is no engine freeze. Similar tricks down at the other manufacturers as well.
In essence yes, but all the teams can do is make things stronger to run them harder. Proper development is a world away from what they can actually do right now.
Felipe Baby!

AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: Mercedes W13

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SiLo wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 18:16
AR3-GP wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 15:53
El_KaPpa wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 13:33
An interesting article in italian.

"Mercedes with Power Unit Phase 3 reinforced the crankshaft to improve reliability. This allowed better PU optimization and more aggressive maps while keeping good reliability.
Next step was taken in Mexico with new turbo management mapping, a change that allowed for better heat dissipation"

https://www.formu1a.uno/bahrain-brasile ... cedes-w13/
:? :lol:

F1's worst kept secret is that there is no engine freeze. Similar tricks down at the other manufacturers as well.
In essence yes, but all the teams can do is make things stronger to run them harder. Proper development is a world away from what they can actually do right now.
Yes there are much more exciting things in terms of the concept, the fuel, mixing and atomization, but I'd say that reinforcing the pistons, crankshaft, turbo or even just changing the material etc etc may allow things to run hotter, longer, more load etc. There's plenty for everyone to explore. It's just now in a different domain that isn't as flashy.

SmallSoldier
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Joined: 10 Mar 2019, 03:54

Re: Mercedes W13

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W13 Chassis:

Image

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Blackout
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Joined: 09 Feb 2010, 04:12

Re: Mercedes W13

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It makes my initial guess-drawing of the monocoque bulkhead look conservative : P
But as Scarbs said, one has to wonder about the impact of this high fuel position on the performance...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fh1i1eVXgAA ... ame=medium

wjpbill
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Joined: 15 Feb 2012, 16:22

Re: Mercedes W13

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Free practice 1, Russell’s floor didn’t have the support stays on it, Hamilton’s did.

Looks like the cars are not the same.

El_KaPpa
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Joined: 20 Feb 2013, 14:33

Re: Mercedes W13

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wjpbill wrote:
18 Nov 2022, 13:56
Free practice 1, Russell’s floor didn’t have the support stays on it, Hamilton’s did.

Looks like the cars are not the same.
Yes indeed.
Image
Of course I struggle. I just don’t quit.

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atanatizante
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Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 15:33

Re: Mercedes W13

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AR3-GP wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 18:22
SiLo wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 18:16
AR3-GP wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 15:53


:? :lol:

F1's worst kept secret is that there is no engine freeze. Similar tricks down at the other manufacturers as well.
In essence yes, but all the teams can do is make things stronger to run them harder. Proper development is a world away from what they can actually do right now.
Yes there are much more exciting things in terms of the concept, the fuel, mixing and atomization, but I'd say that reinforcing the pistons, crankshaft, turbo or even just changing the material etc etc may allow things to run hotter, longer, more load etc. There's plenty for everyone to explore. It's just now in a different domain that isn't as flashy.
You are right regarding fuel importance nowadays bearing in mind that from 2024 all engines will have to run on 100% bio-fuel ... speaking of this it`s rumoured that Petronas didn`t do a particularly good job on this year's 10% biofuel formula in order to regain that 2021 power level output (like Exxon-Mobil did with the Honda engine) but fortunately they`ll have a new chance at the start of next year championship ...

Having said that I`ve noticed that was little to almost nothing written about the MGU-K freeze after the 1st of September and the rumours are saying that again Honda did a better job, again, and also they were quickly having a mapping allowing it to the max, compared to the Merc one, which is told it was gradually turned up to its max capabilities at the last 2 races .
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
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morefirejules08
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Joined: 11 Feb 2012, 14:21

Re: Mercedes W13

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atanatizante wrote:
19 Nov 2022, 13:31
AR3-GP wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 18:22
SiLo wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 18:16


In essence yes, but all the teams can do is make things stronger to run them harder. Proper development is a world away from what they can actually do right now.
Yes there are much more exciting things in terms of the concept, the fuel, mixing and atomization, but I'd say that reinforcing the pistons, crankshaft, turbo or even just changing the material etc etc may allow things to run hotter, longer, more load etc. There's plenty for everyone to explore. It's just now in a different domain that isn't as flashy.
You are right regarding fuel importance nowadays bearing in mind that from 2024 all engines will have to run on 100% bio-fuel ... speaking of this it`s rumoured that Petronas didn`t do a particularly good job on this year's 10% biofuel formula in order to regain that 2021 power level output (like Exxon-Mobil did with the Honda engine) but fortunately they`ll have a new chance at the start of next year championship ...

Having said that I`ve noticed that was little to almost nothing written about the MGU-K freeze after the 1st of September and the rumours are saying that again Honda did a better job, again, and also they were quickly having a mapping allowing it to the max, compared to the Merc one, which is told it was gradually turned up to its max capabilities at the last 2 races .
I believe it’s 2026 and it will be synthetic rather than biofuel.

OO7
OO7
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Joined: 06 Apr 2010, 17:49

Re: Mercedes W13

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El_KaPpa wrote:
18 Nov 2022, 17:46
wjpbill wrote:
18 Nov 2022, 13:56
Free practice 1, Russell’s floor didn’t have the support stays on it, Hamilton’s did.

Looks like the cars are not the same.
Yes indeed.
https://i.ibb.co/zRCx5nC/20221118-174535.jpg
I may be wrong, but it looks like Mercedes may have also run a 2023 spec raised floor on Russell's.

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Vanja #66
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Russell confirmed AD race was a reality-check for W13... Sadly, zero-pods have proven to be the wrong concept for these cars and I think, with several in-season hints at full redesign for 2023, it's clear we won't see them again.

Shame, I was looking forward to having more design variety for a longer period of time :(
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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Stu
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Vanja #66 wrote:
23 Nov 2022, 12:19
Russell confirmed AD race was a reality-check for W13... Sadly, zero-pods have proven to be the wrong concept for these cars and I think, with several in-season hints at full redesign for 2023, it's clear we won't see them again.

Shame, I was looking forward to having more design variety for a longer period of time :(
I would hope not, but as far as I understand it one of the basic underlying principles of creating downforce/lift is the difference in the distance travelled of the air molecules around the object that is moving through them; which does point to more side-pod being beneficial. I know that this is not 100% correct when the object is in very close proximity to the ground, but creating that pressure differential must still be key?
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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Vanja #66
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Stu wrote:
23 Nov 2022, 13:31
I would hope not, but as far as I understand it one of the basic underlying principles of creating downforce/lift is the difference in the distance travelled of the air molecules around the object that is moving through them; which does point to more side-pod being beneficial. I know that this is not 100% correct when the object is in very close proximity to the ground, but creating that pressure differential must still be key?
That's correct in general, but it's not really applicable like that for sidepods. Zero-pods leave too much of the rear of the floor exposed (in front of rear tyres) and this means you have no bodywork to support the downforce created by the floor, something I wrote here

Vanja #66 wrote:
14 Jul 2022, 09:54
***

In wind tunnel, W13 might be the fastest car, but the WT model is still just a model and it can't reflect the actual car 100%. With these rules, this showed with very different model floor stiffness compared to actual floor stiffness.

From this perspective, Merc design has a clear disadvantage with such a big exposed surface. This low stiffness, coupled with potentially smaller ride-height operating window (potential suspension problem, but definitely not as big as it seemed early in the season), leaves the car set-up options compromised. Low stiffness reflects on bouncing sensitivity by providing unstable and unpredictable floor sealing and sudden gain and loss of extra downforce. If bouncing is sorted, bumps on track and roll while cornering affect the predictability of downforce, as floor deflection and vibration increase and decrease it. I'm still not convinced Hamilton and Russell crashed in Austria Q because they pushed too far and not because of mid-corner downforce loss.

To take care of this, the only sensible solution are rod stays, since cable stays don't prevent upward deflection (i.e. floor edges are still prone to vibrations, just limited in downward direction). Rod stays are a big drag penalty, unless concealed within sidepod bodywork, which is what RB was doing from day 1. Somehow Ferrari manages things with cable stays alone, but their floor is significantly less exposed in the critical area (ahead of rear wheel) than Merc. And with wide bodywork, you can fit as many stays as you want, which can also reduce floor weight while increasing stiffness.

***
Merc solved this by raising floor throat height a lot with Barcelona upgrade, reducing overall downforce a lot, and have done a number of other improvements since then to get some of that downforce back. Good pace in Mexico was down to smaller drag penalty than usual, while Brazil race win was also down to top contenders for the win being out of the battle for victory. AD was a reality check, as they had quite a lot of drag to compensate floor downforce loss by running the big wing, while RB and Ferrari could rely on floor downforce more than Merc and use far smaller wings. Even if Merc lowered the car (like Ferrari), evident by experiencing bouncing again after a lot of races.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

TimW
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Joined: 01 Aug 2019, 19:07

Re: Mercedes W13

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Stu wrote:
23 Nov 2022, 13:31
Vanja #66 wrote:
23 Nov 2022, 12:19
Russell confirmed AD race was a reality-check for W13... Sadly, zero-pods have proven to be the wrong concept for these cars and I think, with several in-season hints at full redesign for 2023, it's clear we won't see them again.

Shame, I was looking forward to having more design variety for a longer period of time :(
I would hope not, but as far as I understand it one of the basic underlying principles of creating downforce/lift is the difference in the distance travelled of the air molecules around the object that is moving through them; which does point to more side-pod being beneficial. I know that this is not 100% correct when the object is in very close proximity to the ground, but creating that pressure differential must still be key?
The sidepods are the high pressure side of the 'wing', so having more sidepod volume to accelerate the air is not beneficial.

I am still not convinced the concept has no future. Nothing stops them from keeping the side impact structure wing as a flow conditioner, and have a more sculpted wider zeropod to help that concept. They could make a very low wide sidepod, basically thickening the floor, to add stiffness, with bulges and bumps to help flow conditioning. With the limitation that it cannot have an undercut as I understand.

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chrisc90
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Joined: 23 Feb 2022, 21:22

Re: Mercedes W13

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Will a introduction of side pods mean they have to change the side impact structure and get the chassis re-certified by the FIA?

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