Red Bull RB18

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dxpetrov
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Joined: 24 May 2012, 15:39

Re: Red Bull RB18

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organic wrote:
16 Jun 2022, 21:54
Barcelona/Monaco RW I believe
No, this is medium load wing.

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GrrG
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Joined: 25 Feb 2022, 15:02
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Baku update of Red Bull RB18! Floor fence, floor side and diffuser



Image

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organic
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Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Red Bull RB18

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GrrG wrote:
17 Jun 2022, 10:27
Baku update of Red Bull RB18! Floor fence, floor side and diffuser



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVbFN1RakAI ... ame=medium
The arrow points to the scalloped feature of the floor that was part of the Spain package, just to be clear

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gandharva
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Joined: 06 Feb 2012, 15:19
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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GrrG wrote:
17 Jun 2022, 10:27
Baku update of Red Bull RB18! Floor fence, floor side and diffuser
I think there is nothing new in that picture.

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henry
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Joined: 23 Feb 2004, 20:49
Location: England

Re: Red Bull RB18

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AeroDynamic wrote:
26 May 2022, 13:55
Image
Looking at this mechanism I have a thought about how it might be configured to help with porpoising and high speed braking. Newey has said that he was particularly involved in the suspension, maybe he included this area?

The load response of this mechanism is covered by 3.15.6 in the regulations.
At all times during the test, the load at a given deflection must exceed the load given by a straight-line graph defined by connecting the following coordinates in order: (0 mm, 0 N) (1 mm, 0 N) (5 mm, 4000N) (25mm, 6000N). This must be the case whether the deflection is increasing, decreasing, or held constant. The test will have no more than a maximum load of 8000N or a maximum deflection of 15mm (whichever is reached first) unless specifically requested by the FIA to investigate behaviour above these limits.
The load deflection relationship must be strictly monotonic with both increasing and decreasing deflection
Two things I note. Firstly it is quite stiff, the forces are quite high for quite small movements of this section of the floor. Secondly, the regs are concerned about hysteresis, the bolded part. However there is no mention of how quickly the load is applied or removed.

If the car starts to porpoise, perhaps it hits a bump the road, load on this part of the floor will increase, and then the aero load goes down and the car is pushed up with a force which is the difference between aero load and the sum of the load from the suspension springs, including the tyres, and the floor mechanism. If the floor has hysteresis, as the car starts to lift the floor’s contribution to the upward force, and hence movement will decrease. If the hysteresis is high enough it will lose contact with the road, the load it provides goes to zero and a gap will open allowing air flow under the plank. This would reduce the vigorous and amplitude of porpoising.

The porpoising frequency is around 6hz. I doubt very much that the measurement mechanism applies loads at anything like that rate. The spring elements, Belleville washers are notorious for hysteresis and who knows what damping mechanism there is in the strut.

In high speed braking there is a load transfer to the front of the car, for a 5g stop around 3500N. This will compress the front suspension and tyres and likely load up the front of the floor. This might reduce the braking force and stability. With hysteresis, as soon as the speed reduces the front of the car will rise and the contact force of the floor to the road will drop, perhaps to zero, increasing braking force, improving stability and possibly allowing greater air flow to the floor.

For both these potential mechanisms running the car with a small amount of rake would be needed. I don’t think it’s possible to easily judge rake on these cars given the configuration and flexibility of the floor edge.

This is not necessarily exclusive to RB18, other cars have mechanisms here but the RB one is easy to observe.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

johnny comelately
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Joined: 10 Apr 2015, 00:55
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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henry wrote:
17 Jun 2022, 15:21
Looking at this mechanism I have a thought about how it might be configured to help with porpoising and high speed braking. Newey has said that he was particularly involved in the suspension, maybe he included this area?

The load response of this mechanism is covered by 3.15.6 in the regulations.
At all times during the test, the load at a given deflection must exceed the load given by a straight-line graph defined by connecting the following coordinates in order: (0 mm, 0 N) (1 mm, 0 N) (5 mm, 4000N) (25mm, 6000N). This must be the case whether the deflection is increasing, decreasing, or held constant. The test will have no more than a maximum load of 8000N or a maximum deflection of 15mm (whichever is reached first) unless specifically requested by the FIA to investigate behaviour above these limits.
The load deflection relationship must be strictly monotonic with both increasing and decreasing deflection
Two things I note. Firstly it is quite stiff, the forces are quite high for quite small movements of this section of the floor. Secondly, the regs are concerned about hysteresis, the bolded part. However there is no mention of how quickly the load is applied or removed.

If the car starts to porpoise, perhaps it hits a bump the road, load on this part of the floor will increase, and then the aero load goes down and the car is pushed up with a force which is the difference between aero load and the sum of the load from the suspension springs, including the tyres, and the floor mechanism. If the floor has hysteresis, as the car starts to lift the floor’s contribution to the upward force, and hence movement will decrease. If the hysteresis is high enough it will lose contact with the road, the load it provides goes to zero and a gap will open allowing air flow under the plank. This would reduce the vigorous and amplitude of porpoising.

The porpoising frequency is around 6hz. I doubt very much that the measurement mechanism applies loads at anything like that rate. The spring elements, Belleville washers are notorious for hysteresis and who knows what damping mechanism there is in the strut.

In high speed braking there is a load transfer to the front of the car, for a 5g stop around 3500N. This will compress the front suspension and tyres and likely load up the front of the floor. This might reduce the braking force and stability. With hysteresis, as soon as the speed reduces the front of the car will rise and the contact force of the floor to the road will drop, perhaps to zero, increasing braking force, improving stability and possibly allowing greater air flow to the floor.

For both these potential mechanisms running the car with a small amount of rake would be needed. I don’t think it’s possible to easily judge rake on these cars given the configuration and flexibility of the floor edge.

This is not necessarily exclusive to RB18, other cars have mechanisms here but the RB one is easy to observe.
The damping is the key point there, it should stop any tendency of hysteresis.
Are you sure about 6 hz?

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henry
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Joined: 23 Feb 2004, 20:49
Location: England

Re: Red Bull RB18

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I’ve measured 6hz on Leclerc’s Ferrari and Newey mentioned it in his interview where he talked about his contribution to this years car. I’ve also made an estimate based on natural frequency for a simple 850kg mass and 60mm total suspension travel with linear rate, which came in the same ballpark. This might suggest why this is difficult problem area.

The damping is hysteresis, it’s what you use to get the effect I’m describing.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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organic
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Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Red Bull RB18

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johnny comelately wrote:
17 Jun 2022, 15:30
henry wrote:
17 Jun 2022, 15:21
Looking at this mechanism I have a thought about how it might be configured to help with porpoising and high speed braking. Newey has said that he was particularly involved in the suspension, maybe he included this area?

The load response of this mechanism is covered by 3.15.6 in the regulations.
At all times during the test, the load at a given deflection must exceed the load given by a straight-line graph defined by connecting the following coordinates in order: (0 mm, 0 N) (1 mm, 0 N) (5 mm, 4000N) (25mm, 6000N). This must be the case whether the deflection is increasing, decreasing, or held constant. The test will have no more than a maximum load of 8000N or a maximum deflection of 15mm (whichever is reached first) unless specifically requested by the FIA to investigate behaviour above these limits.
The load deflection relationship must be strictly monotonic with both increasing and decreasing deflection
Two things I note. Firstly it is quite stiff, the forces are quite high for quite small movements of this section of the floor. Secondly, the regs are concerned about hysteresis, the bolded part. However there is no mention of how quickly the load is applied or removed.

If the car starts to porpoise, perhaps it hits a bump the road, load on this part of the floor will increase, and then the aero load goes down and the car is pushed up with a force which is the difference between aero load and the sum of the load from the suspension springs, including the tyres, and the floor mechanism. If the floor has hysteresis, as the car starts to lift the floor’s contribution to the upward force, and hence movement will decrease. If the hysteresis is high enough it will lose contact with the road, the load it provides goes to zero and a gap will open allowing air flow under the plank. This would reduce the vigorous and amplitude of porpoising.

The porpoising frequency is around 6hz. I doubt very much that the measurement mechanism applies loads at anything like that rate. The spring elements, Belleville washers are notorious for hysteresis and who knows what damping mechanism there is in the strut.

In high speed braking there is a load transfer to the front of the car, for a 5g stop around 3500N. This will compress the front suspension and tyres and likely load up the front of the floor. This might reduce the braking force and stability. With hysteresis, as soon as the speed reduces the front of the car will rise and the contact force of the floor to the road will drop, perhaps to zero, increasing braking force, improving stability and possibly allowing greater air flow to the floor.

For both these potential mechanisms running the car with a small amount of rake would be needed. I don’t think it’s possible to easily judge rake on these cars given the configuration and flexibility of the floor edge.

This is not necessarily exclusive to RB18, other cars have mechanisms here but the RB one is easy to observe.
The damping is the key point there, it should stop any tendency of hysteresis.
Are you sure about 6 hz?
Image

This was shown during Barcelona weekend, possibly post-race

Sevach
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Red Bull RB18

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Image

Image

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Red Bull RB18

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AR3-GP wrote:
16 Jun 2022, 19:35
The detail on the RB floor is absurd.
It's like the dug a hole in the middle of the factory, put three engineers in it with some food rations and carving tools, sealed it with a giant slab of wood and told them they wont be relased until they carved out a masterpeice of a floor!
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

GrizzleBoy
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Joined: 05 Mar 2012, 04:06

Re: Red Bull RB18

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Every time I see a new angle of those strakes it makes me feel like I have to reconfigure everything about what I thought they were doing lol.

For instance that middle strake in the top picture almost looks in washing, but I'm sure the angle is hiding the last portion of the strake that flicks outward when seen from below.

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Red Bull RB18

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GrizzleBoy wrote:
18 Jun 2022, 00:29
Every time I see a new angle of those strakes it makes me feel like I have to reconfigure everything about what I thought they were doing lol.

For instance that middle strake in the top picture almost looks in washing, but I'm sure the angle is hiding the last portion of the strake that flicks outward when seen from below.
I wonder if they look the same once there is some air pressure involved?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Roostfactor
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Joined: 26 Aug 2016, 04:50
Location: Texas

Re: Red Bull RB18

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Big Tea wrote:
18 Jun 2022, 00:31
GrizzleBoy wrote:
18 Jun 2022, 00:29
Every time I see a new angle of those strakes it makes me feel like I have to reconfigure everything about what I thought they were doing lol.

For instance that middle strake in the top picture almost looks in washing, but I'm sure the angle is hiding the last portion of the strake that flicks outward when seen from below.
I wonder if they look the same once there is some air pressure involved?
Good point! I'm sure it would be very difficult to enforce the "no movable aero parts" when it's not visible.

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GrrG
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Joined: 25 Feb 2022, 15:02
Location: Italy Rome

Re: Red Bull RB18

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Red Bull: new anti-overheating brake calipers

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-re ... content=it

Old
Image

New
Image

AR3-GP
313
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: Red Bull RB18

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I'm always skeptical when someone uses "anti-something" technology. It implies the brakes could never overheat. The more reasonable claim is that the new system is just better than the old one. I'm sure I could overheat those brakes :D

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