Decoupled suspension

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johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Location: Australia

Re: Decoupled suspension

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Honda Porsche fan wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:49 am
henry wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:04 am
Honda Porsche fan wrote:
Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:17 pm
Does the decoupled suspension have anything to do with the the Benetton Renault Tuned Mass damper of 2005 that was banned ?

If not, could you add a tuned mass damper to a decoupled hydraulic suspension or FRIC with added benefits or will it be redundant or cause negative issues?

The tuned mass damper was tuned to counteract yaw motion.

"How Renault F1 won a World championship by creating the tuned mass damper."...
https://mooregoodink.com/how-renault-f1 ... ss-damper/
The mass damper on the car handled heave and pitch.

The yaw that is referred to is on the wind tunnel model.
Does a fully decoupled hydraulic suspension with FRIC remove the need for a mass damper? Or could a mass damper be added with additional benefits?
the latter IMHO

Honda Porsche fan
Honda Porsche fan
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Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Decoupled suspension

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Is there any way to fully decouple a suspension system on a car/race car with a spring system or only with hydraulics ?

Are the 2022 F1 cars fully decoupled being naturally sprung this season?

Also, did the Porsche 919 Hybrid raced at Le Mans in 2016/2017 have fully decoupled suspension ?

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Decoupled suspension

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Honda Porsche fan wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:15 pm
Is there any way to fully decouple a suspension system on a car/race car with a spring system ..... ?
of course
eg a wind tunnel 6-component balance (ie having 6 independent counterbalancing 'weighbeams') is fully decoupled

btw glad to hear the Renault model had oscillation (or whatever) in yaw ....
vindication .....

Honda Porsche fan
Honda Porsche fan
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Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Decoupled suspension

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 3:53 pm
Honda Porsche fan wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:15 pm
Is there any way to fully decouple a suspension system on a car/race car with a spring system ..... ?
of course
eg a wind tunnel 6-component balance (ie having 6 independent counterbalancing 'weighbeams') is fully decoupled


btw glad to hear the Renault model had oscillation (or whatever) in yaw ....
vindication .....
I'm not familiar or knowledgeable on engineering. What does counterbalancing weighbeams look like? Is it like this in the link below ?

https://www.ate-aerotech.co.uk/capabili ... -external/

Are there any current F1 cars or Le Mans' prototypes that have fully decoupled naturally sprung suspension with no hydraulics ?

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Decoupled suspension

Post

Honda Porsche fan wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:43 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 3:53 pm
a wind tunnel 6-component balance (ie having 6 independent counterbalancing 'weighbeams') is fully decoupled[/b]
... counterbalancing weighbeams - like this in the link below ?
https://www.ate-aerotech.co.uk/capabili ... -external/
well ....no ....
counterbalancing 'weighbeams' automatically move weights for balance - loads are according to 'distance moved' count

your link is a good find ... showing afaik ....
balances with full decoupling linkages- but using 6 (inert) single-component-of-load cells instead of 6 (live) 'weighbeams'
the decoupling linkages were IP from government labs c.100 years ago

this design approach is conservative, complicated and expensive (and bulky) - but offers some user benefits
decoupling can be done numerically and/or by design of the load sensing elements (also benefitting stiffness ?)
f1technical.net quotes Aerotech's disclaimer ie that some amount of compliance is unavoidable


'naturally sprung' suspension could be ok with intelligent (eg electromechanical) spring platforms and without full decoupling
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Honda Porsche fan
Honda Porsche fan
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Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Decoupled suspension

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:28 am
Honda Porsche fan wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:43 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 3:53 pm
a wind tunnel 6-component balance (ie having 6 independent counterbalancing 'weighbeams') is fully decoupled[/b]
... counterbalancing weighbeams - like this in the link below ?
https://www.ate-aerotech.co.uk/capabili ... -external/
well ....no ....
counterbalancing 'weighbeams' automatically move weights for balance - loads are according to 'distance moved' count

your link is a good find ... showing afaik ....
balances with full decoupling linkages- but using 6 (inert) single-component-of-load cells instead of 6 (live) 'weighbeams'


this design approach is conservative, complicated and expensive (and bulky) - but offers some user benefits
decoupling can be done numerically and/or by design of the load sensing elements (also benefitting stiffness ?)
this site apparently quotes Aerotech's disclaimer ie that some amount of compliance is unavoidable


'naturally sprung' suspension could be ok with intelligent (eg electromechanical) spring platforms and without full decoupling
Which technology and approach would be superior for automotive design in suspension between using afaik vs 6 live weighbeams ?

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
592
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Decoupled suspension

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Honda Porsche fan wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:19 am
Which technology and approach would be superior for automotive design in suspension between using afaik vs 6 live weighbeams ?
I wasn't suggesting active suspension by using live weighbeams moving weights around

Honda Porsche fan
Honda Porsche fan
3
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:44 am

Re: Decoupled suspension

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:17 pm
Honda Porsche fan wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 1:19 am
Which technology and approach would be superior for automotive design in suspension between using afaik vs 6 live weighbeams ?
I wasn't suggesting active suspension by using live weighbeams moving weights around
I'm curious, are there any F1 teams in 2022 that have fully decoupled their naturally sprung suspension ?

Greg Locock
Greg Locock
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Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:48 pm

Re: Decoupled suspension

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If you mean zero warp stiffness, no that is not possible in any practical sense without interconnectors between axles. Some high articulation low speed offroaders may achieve a low warp stiffness by using a rotational joint between the front and the back half of the vehicle. You'd probably skip suspension entirely in that case.

PhillipM
PhillipM
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Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: Decoupled suspension

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Greg Locock wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:31 am
If you mean zero warp stiffness, no that is not possible in any practical sense without interconnectors between axles. Some high articulation low speed offroaders may achieve a low warp stiffness by using a rotational joint between the front and the back half of the vehicle. You'd probably skip suspension entirely in that case.
I built one once and we did, it was hydraulic pumped rather than passive suspension.