Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
saviour stivala
45
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

Post

Pat Pending wrote:
Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:20 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:33 pm
The turbocharging system used in F1 is different from that used by the majority of normal road cars. In F1 when the waste-gate is fully opened it is meant to reduce exhaust pressure in collector to zero. Because only with exhaust collector pressure at zero can the electric supercharging mode extract maximum possible power from the ICE. With the exhaust collector pressure at zero, the turbine wheel being fixed to compressor shaft, it is just getting a ride on shaft. As is the function of the waste-gate of a F1 turbo, it does not control boost, it makes sure that when fully open exhaust gas pressure in collector is zero. The exhaust stream of a F1 exhaust piping system from engine to turbo will chose the path of least resistance when waste-gate is fully open. End the least resistance path is through the waste-gate and not through the turbine. In electric supercharging mode with waste-gat fully open. The F1 turbo cannot utilise blowdown pulses energy because of a fully open waste-gate. And with waste-gate closed and turbine being powered by exhaust gas pressure. I doubt how much use it can make of blowdown pulse energy. This because as far as I know all four PU’S on the grid uses an exhaust pressure collector for a path for exhaust gases to turbine and not the proper exhaust piping conductive to make best use of blowdown pulse energy. ( 07 oct 2014 ‘’blowdown energy is free’’ by GR – To harness this energy the pressure pulse must be piped to the turbo without adding pressure to the exhaust of any cylinder)
If I've followed that correctly (and I may not have done!), you're describing a mode of operation in which you are electrically driving the compressor in preference to using available exhaust gas energy/flow. Why would you do that?

And if that's correct then presumably the waste-gate operation is not dependent on the intake pressure (as I understand it to be in road car applications)?
Yes. You followed correctly. The 'electric supercharghing mode' is used because running the ICE in that mode they can extract more power from the ICE then when running the ICE in exhaust turbocharging mode. As used in formula 1,the waste-gate opeeration is not dependent intake pressure 'boost'.

gruntguru
gruntguru
548
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:33 pm
. . . And with waste-gate closed and turbine being powered by exhaust gas pressure. I doubt how much use it can make of blowdown pulse
.
energy. This because as far as I know all four PU’S on the grid uses an exhaust pressure collector for a path for exhaust gases to turbine and not the proper exhaust piping conductive to make best use of blowdown pulse energy.
There are many images showing Formula 1 turbine housings with 2 inlets and only 3 cylinders connected to each inlet. The only reason for this is to harvest blowdown energy.
.
( 07 oct 2014 ‘’blowdown energy is free’’ by GR – To harness this energy the pressure pulse must be piped to the turbo without adding pressure to the exhaust of any cylinder)
. . . to accomplish this, each nozzle or volute of the turbine must be connected to no more than one exhausting cylinder at any time. On four stroke engines this means that no more than 3 evenly spaced cylinders can be connected to each nozzle. Connecting more than 3 cylinders to a nozzle would mean that at some time during its exhaust stroke, each cylinder will be sharing the nozzle with a high pressure blowdown pulse from another cylinder - greatly increasing the backpressure on the cylinder on exhaust stroke to the detriment of pumping work and exhaust gas removal for that cylinder.
je suis charlie

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
45
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

Post

(07 oct 2014 - blowdown energy is free - by GR - to harness this energy the pressurer pulse must be piped to the turbo without adding pressure to the exhaust of any cylinder). In F1 three cylinders from each bank of the uneven firing V6 engine are piped into a collect. and each of the two collectors convey exhaust gases into two separate pionts of the turbine housing when the waste-gate is closed. The problem is that these two colectors are above atmospheric pressurewhen waste-gate is closed, and so they are adding pressure to each of the six cylinders. This as confirmed by the fact that when ICE is operating in electric supercharging mode with collectors at atmospheric pressure, ICE power output is increased.

gruntguru
gruntguru
548
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:56 am
The problem is that these two colectors are above atmospheric pressure when waste-gate is closed, and so they are adding pressure to each of the six cylinders.
Correct. As I have said all along the turbine is a pressure turbine but also harnesses blowdown energy.
Harnessing blowdown energy enables the turbine either to operate at a lower back pressure or to harvest more energy.
je suis charlie

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
45
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Will we still hear the external wastegates venting in 2022?

Post

It looks like the later part of this discussion which was about how good the F1 turbo system is in making use of ‘cylinder exhaust pressure pulses’ have now jumped back to making use of ‘exhaust pressure energy’. This after the earlier part of the discussion jumping from how the F1 system makes use of a ‘blowdown’ or a ‘pressure’ turbine. As regards how much the F1 turbo system can make use of ‘exhaust pressure pulses. To me the F1 system, starting with the as mandated V6 ICE and ending with the pressure type of turbine used, is not very conductive in making use and harnessing its cylinders exhaust pressure pulses. Nothing in said system points to the ability of making good use of cylinder exhaust pressure pulses. Skipping one of the two modes the F1 turbo can operate in, that when the waste-gate is fully open, which eliminates the possibility of making use of cylinder exhaust pressure pulses. The other mode. that with the waste-gate closed. Starting with the uneven firing V6 ICE, and ending with the fact that both the turbine and collector of each bank are above atmospheric pressure is not conductive to making best use of cylinder exhaust pressure pulses. PS. All exchaust gases past the exhaust valve is blowdown exhaust gases. All blowdwon exhaust gases are pressure gases containing energy, as well as exhaust pressure pulses energy. The pressure turbine type is best suited in harnesing blowdown exhaust gas pressure energy. while the blowdown type of turbine is best suited in making use of blowdown cylinder pressure pulses, as by design it eleminates any cylinder back pressure in the system before it.