2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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djos
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:44 am
Quantum wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:32 am
djos wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:48 am


It’s quite simple, they are unhappy that Mercedes seem to have been given advance notice of the 2nd stay being allowed as no one else was able to get one developed in time for Canada.

I don’t support either team (Mclaren fan) but to me it looks bad.
It might simply be procedural. The FIA said after the Baku GP they would be looking to add TD's to see what could be done. Mercedes suffered the most and therefore would be in close contact with them regarding the measures. That avenue is open to all teams right?

If a second stay is being held up as evidence as collusion between the FIA and Mercedes, specifically as a "development" others weren't in the loop on, I'd have serious reservations.
Firstly, a second stay is literally just that. Mercedes know the rebound points on the floor and it's positioning is dictated by that. Then it's about adding the stay and it's attachments.

Secondly, Mercedes kept 2 floors at the factory until the FIA released the TD, which were then flown overnight for Friday. Had it been collusive, surely they would've just been shipped over with the rest of the gear?

This seems to me that Mercedes were planning on reacting quickly to any TD the FIA would propose, and a second stay is really just a rudimentary bolt on.
Yup looked like the stay were a last minute addition. The clips on the floor were just screwed in and glued together. Looks like it can be done within 3 to 4 hours by a fully fleged f1 team
These sort of things are rarely done without a lot of development and simulation. F1 teams rarely ever slap together changes to their cars.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

restless
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:15 am
aerobatic aircraft are designed to be used at 12g
fighter aircraft are designed to be used at 9g

but F1 is frightening itself at 6g ?
You saying that aircrafts do 9-12g for 90 minutes and 50 times every minute? Always in same direction?
oook.

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SiLo
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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djos wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:48 am
KeiKo403 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:43 am
With the TD that was announced at the weekend why are Red Bull so against it?

Generally teams don’t make a fuss unless it’s going to negatively impact their performance.

RedBull seem to have the most stable car with very little to no porpoising. Their main competition on the other hand, Ferrari, and too a much lesser extent Mercedes would be pushed further back all but guaranteeing RB 1-2s for the rest of the season.

I just don’t get it. What does RedBull stand to loose?
It’s quite simple, they are unhappy that Mercedes seem to have been given advance notice of the 2nd stay being allowed as no one else was able to get one developed in time for Canada.

I don’t support either team (Mclaren fan) but to me it looks bad.
Mercedes left people at the factory and then they made a tiny metal part to get stuck to the floor.

It amazes me that these world class manufacturing outfits are baffled at how Mercedes produced a stay within 24hrs. It probably took about 20 minutes to fabricate.
Felipe Baby!

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Big Tea
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Was watching a kid in a stroller at the café this morning. Mom was rocking the handle, and the kid was going up and down like Hamilton. They have obviously began a new training program for F1 future drivers.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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restless wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:31 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:15 am
aerobatic aircraft are designed to be used at 12g
fighter aircraft are designed to be used at 9g
but F1 is frightening itself at 6g ?
You saying that aircrafts do 9-12g for 90 minutes and 50 times every minute? Always in same direction?
yes why not ?
a modernish jet fighter will fly +9g continuously - people need to train and test for this g in centrifuges
the real limiting factor for airframe life is fatigue from the added g oscillation due to turbulent air - not steady g

aerobatic airframes are designed to +-12 g (eg they got close to +11g maybe twice per lap in RB air race)
(no sustained flight mode would reach this much g - also negative g over 5 or 6 will damage eyes)
I got livid bruising from the harness(es) after doing outside snap rolls in the worst direction
presumably due to the sudden -g's flight load in a harness already preloaded by in-flight super-tightening

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:57 pm
restless wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:31 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:15 am
aerobatic aircraft are designed to be used at 12g
fighter aircraft are designed to be used at 9g
but F1 is frightening itself at 6g ?
You saying that aircrafts do 9-12g for 90 minutes and 50 times every minute? Always in same direction?
yes why not ?
a modernish jet fighter will fly +9g continuously - people need to train and test for this g in centrifuges
the real limiting factor for airframe life is fatigue from the added g oscillation due to turbulent air - not steady g

aerobatic airframes are designed to +-12 g (eg they got close to +11g maybe twice per lap in RB air race)
(no sustained flight mode would reach this much g - also negative g over 5 or 6 will damage eyes)
I got livid bruising from the harness(es) after doing outside snap rolls in the worst direction
presumably due to the sudden -g's flight load in a harness already preloaded by in-flight super-tightening
The issue isn't the magnitude, it's the repetitive nature of the jolts in the car and it's also the rate at which the acceleration occurs. In the aircraft, you apply the g-loading in one direction and it builds over a period of time and it's generally in one direction. Yes, in extreme aerobatics one can get varying g-loadings but they aren't at several hertz.

It's the jackhammer effect that is causing the drivers physical discomfort, more than the headline g-figure being applied. It's 6g applied up by the seat, followed by 6g applied down by the straps, followed by 6g up by the seat, etc., all at around 4-6Hz. The driver's body is subjected to more than the headline figure because it's not perfectly fixed to the car - the body has a small amount of movement possible which increases the loads applied. So it's being shaken - internal organs too, don't forget - and the spine and the limb joints are struggling to deal with it.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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djos wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:23 pm
These sort of things are rarely done without a lot of development and simulation. F1 teams rarely ever slap together changes to their cars.
Come now, it's a stay.

They already have one on the car and know exactly what the performance cost benefit would be of having one.
Now simply add a second one.
It's literally a hodgepodge arrangement.

Pretty sure Mercedes hacksawed their rear wing this year on the fly too, way more sensitive than a stay and without the benefit of hours of Dev/Sim work.
Needs must sometimes.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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djos wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:48 am
KeiKo403 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:43 am
With the TD that was announced at the weekend why are Red Bull so against it?

Generally teams don’t make a fuss unless it’s going to negatively impact their performance.

RedBull seem to have the most stable car with very little to no porpoising. Their main competition on the other hand, Ferrari, and too a much lesser extent Mercedes would be pushed further back all but guaranteeing RB 1-2s for the rest of the season.

I just don’t get it. What does RedBull stand to loose?
It’s quite simple, they are unhappy that Mercedes seem to have been given advance notice of the 2nd stay being allowed as no one else was able to get one developed in time for Canada.

I don’t support either team (Mclaren fan) but to me it looks bad.
Or there was noise being made about the requirement to "do something" and they thought "let's knock up a quick-and-dirty" stay just in case we're allowed to run one. It's a bit of rod with a crude bracket at each end, each holding a pin in double shear. You could knock that up in a domestic workshop between coffees.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Sevach
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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KeiKo403 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:43 am
With the TD that was announced at the weekend why are Red Bull so against it?

Generally teams don’t make a fuss unless it’s going to negatively impact their performance.

RedBull seem to have the most stable car with very little to no porpoising. Their main competition on the other hand, Ferrari, and too a much lesser extent Mercedes would be pushed further back all but guaranteeing RB 1-2s for the rest of the season.

I just don’t get it. What does RedBull stand to loose?
With the second stay in particular i think it only benefits teams with narrow sidepods, so Mercedes and Williams, maybe Mclaren.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:22 pm
The issue isn't the magnitude, it's the repetitive nature of the jolts in the car ... in extreme aerobatics one can get varying g-loadings but they aren't at several hertz.
It's the jackhammer effect ...The driver's body ... it's being shaken - internal organs too, don't forget - and the spine and the limb joints are struggling to deal with it.
yes several Hz in turbulent air at military speeds - ok the max g I have found with this is 3g

shaken driver syndrome ?
(shaken baby syndrome is like whiplash a legal thing not a medical thing - say (some) medical scientists)

1949 &1950 Sidecar World Championships were won on Nortons with no suspension of rear wheel or sidecar wheel
by Eric Oliver and Dennis Jenkinson (before he became Motor Sport's race writer)
Bugatti made for oval tracks eg Montlhery and Brooklands a car without rear suspension

GrizzleBoy
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:57 pm
restless wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:31 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:15 am
aerobatic aircraft are designed to be used at 12g
fighter aircraft are designed to be used at 9g
but F1 is frightening itself at 6g ?
You saying that aircrafts do 9-12g for 90 minutes and 50 times every minute? Always in same direction?
yes why not ?
a modernish jet fighter will fly +9g continuously - people need to train and test for this g in centrifuges
the real limiting factor for airframe life is fatigue from the added g oscillation due to turbulent air - not steady g

aerobatic airframes are designed to +-12 g (eg they got close to +11g maybe twice per lap in RB air race)
(no sustained flight mode would reach this much g - also negative g over 5 or 6 will damage eyes)
I got livid bruising from the harness(es) after doing outside snap rolls in the worst direction
presumably due to the sudden -g's flight load in a harness already preloaded by in-flight super-tightening
In what situations do fighter pilots experience instantaneous upto 9g acceleration up their spine as an almost direct transfer of energy from a physical strike to the Hull of the vehicle they are piloting?

Repeatedly, for almost the whole time they are piloting the vehicle?

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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GrizzleBoy wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:43 pm
In what situations do fighter pilots experience instantaneous upto 9g acceleration up their spine as an almost direct transfer of energy from a physical strike to the Hull of the vehicle they are piloting?
an acceleration of 9g defines the force being developed on the mass being accelerated
ie 9g is the quantification of the 'direct'ness of transfer of energy

how does (so-called) instantaneous mean anything ?
whenever a 1kg grapefruit is accelerated at 9g it will experience a force of c.100N
100N instantaneously or going through 10N, 20N, 30N .... 80N, 90N, finally 100N ? - it makes no difference to the fruit

people may be inferring from 'instantaneous' that the force is 'high'
not so - the force is already defined by the g value

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ispano6
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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djos wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:23 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:44 am

Yup looked like the stay were a last minute addition. The clips on the floor were just screwed in and glued together. Looks like it can be done within 3 to 4 hours by a fully fleged f1 team
These sort of things are rarely done without a lot of development and simulation. F1 teams rarely ever slap together changes to their cars.
What evidence would the FIA have had to suggest that another stay would solve anyone or everyone's back-breaker problems? Who's floors were flexing so much under load such that it would bottom out so much? If NO team asked for a second stay to be allowed why would the FIA just whimsically offer another stay as a solution? The problem teams have with Mercedes is them having seemingly closed door dealings or tips via former personnel who are conveniently in the FIA making TDs and rules changes on the grounds of "safety and well-being of all drivers" when it's the Mercs putting their own drivers in their torture chambers.

On the flip-side, if the second stay is allowed, then any team that had to thicken their floors to prevent flexing could consider reducing the weight of their floor and use the stays to prevent flexing. Could this then favor Alpine, Red Bull, and Ferrari?

SuperCNJ
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Surely pain/discomfort is subjective so I'm not sure how they can quantify the force that will generate pain/discomfort. Also, I think the problem is the long repetitive nature of the impacts, not so much the magnitude of the impact. I'm guessing one or two high force impacts is not going to cause too much pain for most of these drivers but when its hundreds of high force impacts over the course of a race, applied to the same spot on your body that's when it becomes painful.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:35 pm

how does (so-called) instantaneous mean anything ?
whenever a 1kg grapefruit is accelerated at 9g it will experience a force of c.100N
100N instantaneously or going through 10N, 20N, 30N .... 80N, 90N, finally 100N ? - it makes no difference to the fruit
Yes it does. A gradual force is easier to deal with than an instantaneous one. It's the definition of an effective crash structure.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"