2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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TimW
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:12 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:15 pm
Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:56 am
...Porpoising does not mean the car has to bottom. The effect can take place without it.
is that 4 - 6 Hz porpoising without a 6g aka 9g component ?
or something else ?

sincere question(s)
Cmon Tommy, the G is a variable between the cars with their own data points. It's enough to visibly see Perez helmet shaking on the straight in the smoothest of this years cars. You can speculate the numbers, I'll just go by what I see and hear from the drivers, including Perez.

Vettels head is also shaking, and that is with a car with much softer suspension.

In the current cars the drivers will be shaken more, because of the hard suspension. That is inevitable with the ground effect cars. Your spring rate needs to be higher than the rate the downforces increases when the car goes closer to the ground. And that rate is high because the floor downforce is so dependent on the gap between the floor edge and the ground.

If you want a soft sprung ground effect car, you need to have less downforce from the ground effect. Let me think... we could introduce flat floors... #-o

mzso
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:14 pm
mzso wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:59 am
You saw 10mm? Good for you.
You must have me confused with someone that said 10mm.
Well, I actually quoted you saying 10mm, but never mind...

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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mzso wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:37 pm
Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:14 pm
mzso wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:59 am
You saw 10mm? Good for you.
You must have me confused with someone that said 10mm.
Well, I actually quoted you saying 10mm, but never mind...
No, read it again. You mentioned the 10mm.
I said Mercedes raised it as far as they could within remit of the suspension. The problem persisted.
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Quantum
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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TimW wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:28 pm
Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:12 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:15 pm

is that 4 - 6 Hz porpoising without a 6g aka 9g component ?
or something else ?

sincere question(s)
Cmon Tommy, the G is a variable between the cars with their own data points. It's enough to visibly see Perez helmet shaking on the straight in the smoothest of this years cars. You can speculate the numbers, I'll just go by what I see and hear from the drivers, including Perez.

Vettels head is also shaking, and that is with a car with much softer suspension.

In the current cars the drivers will be shaken more, because of the hard suspension. That is inevitable with the ground effect cars. Your spring rate needs to be higher than the rate the downforces increases when the car goes closer to the ground. And that rate is high because the floor downforce is so dependent on the gap between the floor edge and the ground.

If you want a soft sprung ground effect car, you need to have less downforce from the ground effect. Let me think... we could introduce flat floors... #-o
And to what extent would you say that the problem is exacerbated by the thinner and stiffer tyre wall? It's not just the suspension.

As an aside, I see Pirelli have raised the tyre pressures...

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TimW
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Quantum wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:13 am
And to what extent would you say that the problem is exacerbated by the thinner and stiffer tyre wall? It's not just the suspension.
Actually not at all. Total suspension compliance is just a sum of the tire compliance and the compliance of the spring damper system. A stiffer tire the engineers can just compensate with a softer suspension, with the benefit that they can adjust the damping. A softer tire (wall) is just a bigger factor beyond the engineer's control.

So probably with the old tires the porpoising problem would be (much) worse.

mzso
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Quantum wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:07 am
mzso wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:37 pm
Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:14 pm


You must have me confused with someone that said 10mm.
Well, I actually quoted you saying 10mm, but never mind...
No, read it again. You mentioned the 10mm.
I said Mercedes raised it as far as they could within remit of the suspension. The problem persisted.
Don't make a bigger fool of yourself.
Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:03 am
Raise the rear 10mm? Been over this, didn't solve the problem at all for Mercedes. RB still shows some porpoising too. Ferrari too.

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KAIZEN
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Extract various cases and consider what is happening.
Isn't that the spirit of F1 technical?
It's important to consider technical comparisons and learn from others before making a silly dispute.

The reason why Mercedes cannot raise the vehicle height is because of the large and high diffuser.
The suspension member will hit you. It's a failed machine made without considering suspension travel in all areas.

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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mzso wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:05 am
Someone mentioned a proposed 10mm punishment for those who fail to reach the vertical acceleration goals.
Where does that come from? I don't see it quoted anywhere.
mzso wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:31 am
Well, I actually quoted you saying 10mm, but never mind...
If you don't have the capacity to follow a thread, or know the difference between a question after the fact,I can't help you. And name calling is not really what forum is about. What gives?
Especially since you raised 10mm first, and made the mother of all assumptions. I guess we aint frenz.
"Interplay of triads"

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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KAIZEN wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:14 am
Extract various cases and consider what is happening.
Isn't that the spirit of F1 technical?
It's important to consider technical comparisons and learn from others before making a silly dispute.

The reason why Mercedes cannot raise the vehicle height is because of the large and high diffuser.
The suspension member will hit you. It's a failed machine made without considering suspension travel in all areas.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FWLegNiUAAA ... ame=medium
This makes sense from the various sources at Mercedes saying they were running as high as possible in various set ups and tracks.
Making any FIA directed increase in height arbitrary if they physically cannot go any higher than their max, which for the purposes of peace and love might be 3/6/9mm, only Mercedes will know that.
"Interplay of triads"

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Stu
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Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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KAIZEN wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:14 am
Extract various cases and consider what is happening.
Isn't that the spirit of F1 technical?
It's important to consider technical comparisons and learn from others before making a silly dispute.

The reason why Mercedes cannot raise the vehicle height is because of the large and high diffuser.
The suspension member will hit you. It's a failed machine made without considering suspension travel in all areas.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FWLegNiUAAA ... ame=medium
These are two very good pictures to compare and show numerous points of design diversity from within what had been considered a very restricted rule-set.
It gives an outline of the various design choices that have resulted in operational issues (when trying to cure something that combines both aerodynamic and mechanical issues).
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

CMSMJ1
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Quantum wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:38 am
mzso wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:05 am
Someone mentioned a proposed 10mm punishment for those who fail to reach the vertical acceleration goals.
Where does that come from? I don't see it quoted anywhere.
mzso wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:31 am
Well, I actually quoted you saying 10mm, but never mind...
If you don't have the capacity to follow a thread, or know the difference between a question after the fact,I can't help you. And name calling is not really what forum is about. What gives?
Especially since you raised 10mm first, and made the mother of all assumptions. I guess we aint frenz.
Now then - let's not be mardy.

You did state 10mm. Whether that was plucked from the air or not - it is clear to read that 2 pages ago..you mentioned it and @mzso quoted it.

No need for name calling, quite right, but take it on the chin eh?
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

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carisi2k
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:56 am
carisi2k wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:39 am
Here is a comparison between the 3 top cars at baku. You can see the constant noise of the plank hitting on the Ferrari and Mercedes that you can't here on the Red Bull. That is the difference between porpoising and just bottoming over bumps.

https://scuderiafans.com/video-ferrari- ... -straight/
You would hear the bottoming if it was bottoming. Porpoising does not mean the car has to bottom. The effect can take place without it.
Perez was likely just having a seizure. Probably also just made up his comments throughout the season.

Nothing to see here...
Porpoising does require the car to bottom out.That is where the floor looses it's effectiveness and causes the car to raise up on it's suspension over and over. That is why you hear this constantly on the cars that are porpoising as they go through this process over and over. On Perez's car you only here the bottoming as it hits the bump like on the video you showed.



In this video with hamilton you can here the car constantly bottoming from the porpoising and obviously you can see his head moving up and down significantly more compared to perez in the video you showed where he is getting more horizontal movement from buffeting then vertical movement from porpoising.

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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CMSMJ1 wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:00 pm

Now then - let's not be mardy.

You did state 10mm. Whether that was plucked from the air or not - it is clear to read that 2 pages ago..you mentioned it and @mzso quoted it.

No need for name calling, quite right, but take it on the chin eh?
Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:03 am
Raise the rear 10mm?
I really don't want to go down the route of something as as basic as this, but seriously....does the above come across as a statement or question?
I'll gladly take it on the chin when a question becomes an implicit statement.
"Interplay of triads"

TimW
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:03 am
Raise the rear 10mm? Been over this, didn't solve the problem at all for Mercedes.
In context, this 'question' is definitely a statement.

Dam#it, I let myself being dragged into an endless discussion.
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https://xkcd.com/386/

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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TimW wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:08 pm
Quantum wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:03 am
Raise the rear 10mm? Been over this, didn't solve the problem at all for Mercedes.
In context, this 'question' is definitely a statement.

Dam#it, I let myself being dragged into an endless discussion.
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png
https://xkcd.com/386/
No, and it doesn't even read that way.
We have been over the fact Mercedes raised their rear end. We have been over this.

We had no bouncing for the first time in Barcelona, except for in the high-speed corners. And then it appeared again in Monaco and in Baku, so we had to raise the car again. But even when we raise the car, this thing still bounces. And we can’t go any higher actually. We’re limited by the rear suspension now.
So to illustrate my point, and to avoid confusion...

Some will say raising the height 10mm will eliminate the problem.
It won't.
Why?
Because we have been over this.

Please refer to "limited by rear suspension" and "even when we raise the car, this thing still bounces".

The 10mm was posted earlier in the thread and I refer you to why I raised it as question and answered it in direct context to the quotes we have available from Mercedes.
That does not mean they have run at 10mm, can run at 10mm, nor does it mean I said 10mm.
Is that a concept you can roll with?
Because there's a greater point other than the fixation with 10mm.... pick a number, any number and Mercedes are still bouncing. Hence arbitrary.

Maybe that was lost in a 10mm gap.
"Interplay of triads"