2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:03 pm
They don't comply with the rule, they comply with the current metric - the way that deformation is tested....
the 'current metric' is the effing rule

johnny comelately
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:58 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:03 pm
They don't comply with the rule, they comply with the current metric - the way that deformation is tested....
the 'current metric' is the effing rule
You need to be clearer Tom? :wink:

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:58 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:03 pm
They don't comply with the rule, they comply with the current metric - the way that deformation is tested....
the 'current metric' is the effing rule
No it effing isn't.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

DChemTech
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:49 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:58 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:03 pm
They don't comply with the rule, they comply with the current metric - the way that deformation is tested....
the 'current metric' is the effing rule
No it effing isn't.
It is. There is no other quantitative statement which can be used to evaluate what amounts to flexing and what does not. The rule "part X must be inflexible" is literaly unenforcable - there must be a quantitative threshold, otherwise engineers just have to guess (or mind-read) what the FIA deems flexing and what not, and you can't run a technical competition where teams need to engineer at the boundary of what is permissable to win if those boundaries are not absolutely clear. The huge recurrent mistake of the FIA is that they provide no quantitative measures that are universal and indepedent of the testing metrics. With that, the metrics are the only quantitative thing engineers can go by - but they leave room for ambiguity outside of what those metrics quantify.

Pat Pending
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:49 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:58 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:03 pm
They don't comply with the rule, they comply with the current metric - the way that deformation is tested....
the 'current metric' is the effing rule
No it effing isn't.
@J_a_F, I've seen the sections of the regulations that define the metric quoted in this thread but I don't think I've seen any other sections that effectively say that the plank as a whole must not flex - which is not to say there aren't any such sections, just I've not come across them (I've not gone looking either). I'm assuming that you have such other sections in mind - can you quote/identify those sections so I can better understand your view point.
Thank you.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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It seems FIA have decided on 15mm increase in floor edges for 2023 and no changes to diffuser throat height:
With several F1 teams having suffered with bouncing so far in 2022, a compromise agreement has been reached with the FIA to raise the cars' floor edges by 15mm.
https://racingnews365.com/f1-teams-agre ... -amendment

This does seem like a more measured approach than the 25mm change originally proposed. :)

Presumably there will also be stricter floor edge deflection limits, to reduce the incentive to make floppy floors that bend down to seal this 15mm gap? :?:

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Holm86
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:34 pm
It seems FIA have decided on 15mm increase in floor edges for 2023 and no changes to diffuser throat height:
With several F1 teams having suffered with bouncing so far in 2022, a compromise agreement has been reached with the FIA to raise the cars' floor edges by 15mm.
https://racingnews365.com/f1-teams-agre ... -amendment

This does seem like a more measured approach than the 25mm change originally proposed. :)

Presumably there will also be stricter floor edge deflection limits, to reduce the incentive to make floppy floors that bend down to seal this 15mm gap? :?:
Personally I don't think they should have changed anything. Toto Wolff has announced that they've solved their oscillation problems, and it's something that every team would iron out eventually ...

mzso
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:34 pm
This does seem like a more measured approach than the 25mm change originally proposed. :)
Yes because 15mm is a modest tweak and 25mm is a gargantuan, earth-shattering change... :)

I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out 15mm was the intention of the FIA all along, but they slapped on another 10mm, because they knew teams will whine about anything the present to them.
Last edited by mzso on Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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djos
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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mzso wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:20 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:34 pm
This does seem like a more measured approach than the 25mm change originally proposed. :)
Yes because 15mm is a modest tweak and 25mm is a gargantuan earth shattering change... :)
It wasn’t just the 25mm height change tho, they proposed changing the diffuser throat too which would have been a massive combined change.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

mzso
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Holm86 wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:26 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:34 pm
It seems FIA have decided on 15mm increase in floor edges for 2023 and no changes to diffuser throat height:
With several F1 teams having suffered with bouncing so far in 2022, a compromise agreement has been reached with the FIA to raise the cars' floor edges by 15mm.
https://racingnews365.com/f1-teams-agre ... -amendment

This does seem like a more measured approach than the 25mm change originally proposed. :)

Presumably there will also be stricter floor edge deflection limits, to reduce the incentive to make floppy floors that bend down to seal this 15mm gap? :?:
Personally I don't think they should have changed anything. Toto Wolff has announced that they've solved their oscillation problems, and it's something that every team would iron out eventually ...
Wolff and Horner comments are best regarded as white noise. They have the same amount of useful information.

But the facts are that you still see and/or hear bouncing on the on-board footage all the time. It makes sense to make a safety margin.

mzso
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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djos wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:22 am
It wasn’t just the 25mm height change tho, they proposed changing the diffuser throat too which would have been a massive combined change.
Wouldn't they need to do that anyway with the sidewalls going up? One would think keeping it low would push air out the side, with the wall going up. With accompanying loss of downforce and probably nasty turbulence.

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djos
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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mzso wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:32 am
djos wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:22 am
It wasn’t just the 25mm height change tho, they proposed changing the diffuser throat too which would have been a massive combined change.
Wouldn't they need to do that anyway with the sidewalls going up? One would think keeping it low would push air out the side, with the wall going up. With accompanying loss of downforce and probably nasty turbulence.
Good question, I’ll leave that for the resident aero chaps to answer.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Holm86
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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mzso wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:27 am
Holm86 wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:26 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:34 pm
It seems FIA have decided on 15mm increase in floor edges for 2023 and no changes to diffuser throat height:


https://racingnews365.com/f1-teams-agre ... -amendment

This does seem like a more measured approach than the 25mm change originally proposed. :)

Presumably there will also be stricter floor edge deflection limits, to reduce the incentive to make floppy floors that bend down to seal this 15mm gap? :?:
Personally I don't think they should have changed anything. Toto Wolff has announced that they've solved their oscillation problems, and it's something that every team would iron out eventually ...
Wolff and Horner comments are best regarded as white noise. They have the same amount of useful information.

But the facts are that you still see and/or hear bouncing on the on-board footage all the time. It makes sense to make a safety margin.
The cars has been bouncing on the floor for as long as I remember, not just this year, the difference is the amplitude. Which seems to be ironed out by the end of the season anyway

mzso
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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It would be amusing if Mercedes dropped back with the new oscillation limits, with their bounce prone car. Wolff's churning out the phony appeals for safety like crazy.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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mzso wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:58 pm
It would be amusing if Mercedes dropped back with the new oscillation limits, with their bounce prone car. Wolff's churning out the phony appeals for safety like crazy.
And it will likewise amusing if Red Bull drop back with the new rules. Horner's been churning out phony appeals whilst all the time saying "it won't affect us".
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"