Whats the difference

[Hoffman900]

All I will say to this is amateur race orgs need volunteers and clearly you are all a passionate bunch with time on your hands.

Maybe volunteer and work towards becoming a steward / race director in real life and not a forum?

[dans79]

All I will say to this is amateur race orgs need volunteers and clearly you are all a passionate bunch with time on your hands.

Maybe volunteer and work towards becoming a steward / race director in real life and not a forum?

Honestly, I don't think the FIA or Liberty would accept stewards who rigidly adhere to the rules. We'd see a lot more black flags, and post race DSQs, and that just wouldn't be palatable to the casual fan base just looking for drama, and thus not good for business.

[Hoffman900]

All I will say to this is amateur race orgs need volunteers and clearly you are all a passionate bunch with time on your hands.

Maybe volunteer and work towards becoming a steward / race director in real life and not a forum?

Honestly, I don't think the FIA or Liberty would accept stewards who rigidly adhere to the rules. We'd see a lot more black flags, and post race DSQs, and that just wouldn't be palatable to the casual fan base just looking for drama, and thus not good for business.

I agree 100%, but my point still stands. Racing on the amateur level can only happen if people volunteer. Better to do it in real life than an internet forum.

[Oleo]

Pretty much this:
Difference is Massa left no space inside, Max did. And in Silvertone Lewis missed the apex.

Well the 2 photos I posted show that both times at the point of contact, there was space on the inside and neither of the incidents had even reached the apex.

There is no space for 1 car on the inside of Massa's line, Verstappen clearly does leave space (disclaimer: red lines may not be 100% accurate, so dont nitpick on it, the difference if obvious and clear):
https://i.imgur.com/dzarUVG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/4XLf32m.jpg

2011 is probably a racing incident or small penalty for Massa. Hamilton makes a move that does not really fit in that corner, having to slow his car more due to a bad corner attack angle, Massa cuts his opponent off and does not leave enough space, possibly due to not seeing him properly or assuming the other guy will back out due to having that bad angle.
2021 is clearly mostly the fault of Hamilton. Verstappen is somewhat enthousiastically taking the outside line, but leaves more than enough space for his opponent. Hamilton takes too much speed into the corner and cannot hold the inside line, hitting his opponent on the back wheel.

1) The red lines you put there are not consistent. To show where the car is pointing, all you had to do is draw a straight line down the center of the nose of the car. Then...

2) Use the steering lock and speed of the car to estimate a curve to show the path of the cars.

In both cases, Lewis is not on the apex. In Silverstone he actually had more steering angle towards the Apex.

So your conclusion for 2021 is not logical.

I literally said they are not fully accurate, they show the difference between Verstappen and Massa quite well, but like a good troll you still have to argue about that, there is no good way to draw a line down the center of the car from the onboard of another car.

How is Hamilton not gonna reach apex in Massa situation when he is literally driving straight at it

At Silverstone they hadn't even arrived at the apex before the contact. He missed it because it was still well ahead of him. You can see it in the picture. It's on that red and white kerbing ahead of him.

It's ok having a view but at least make it consistent with the observable facts.

Observable fact, missed apex:

That is after the contact. To say that Hamilton's trajectory wouldn't be altered by the contact is disingenuous.

You can just watch his onboard and the topview instead of trolling. I did not say his trajectory would not be altered, it in fact was not affected much.

Hamiltons line is barely affected by the contact, he misses the apex, because he carries too much speed and understeers away from the corner. I guess I could have said Lewis was going to miss the apex, sure.

I'm not sure if you are aware or not, but any car in the position will lose a lot of downforce because of the outwash from the other car will disturb the flow over its aero surfaces.

And in spite of the contact and loss of aero downforce he still made the corner!

Not to mention the car does not instantaneously go back to full downforce/settle after driving through dirty air, or after contact!

He was over the white line and only managed that by dropping a ton of speed, hence ending up behind Leclerc. Watch the video instead of trolling.
Obviously a car loses downforce, thats the reason he cant make the corner (together with dirty tyres from driving off-line)

so based on that red line, Max was going into the wall without help?

Trollolol. You ve never driven a car? At literally every point of every corner you will ever make your car will be pointing towards a wall, lamppost, sidewalk, pedestrian or whatever is next to the road. The lines are an indication where the car is pointing at that point of time, not an expected driving line, showing Verstappen leaving room on the inside, while Massa is already aiming at/near apex, thus closing the door. OP asked for the difference in the situation, the most obvious one is the room given by the outside driver, which is indicated by the direction the car is travelling at point of contact, shown by the redline.

[dans79]

He was over the white line and only managed that by dropping a ton of speed, hence ending up behind Leclerc.

Per the rules you are considered on track as long as at least on of your wheels is touching the white line, how you achieve that is irrelevant!

[PlatinumZealot]

Oleo needs to analyse the other car. Very one sided analysis.
Get the onboards of the other car, Oleo.

[Just_a_fan]

Oleo needs to analyse the other car. Very one sided analysis.
Get the onboards of the other car, Oleo.

Oleo is just accusing others of trolling, best temper your involvement accordingly.

[NathanOlder]

He was over the white line and only managed that by dropping a ton of speed, hence ending up behind Leclerc.

Per the rules you are considered on track as long as at least on of your wheels is touching the white line, how you achieve that is irrelevant!

At the exit of Copse, the kerb was considered the race track. I remember seeing it in the notes, so the race track is infact even wider than the white line there. Lewis stayed on track the whole time.

[101FlyingDutchman]

Let’s start by saying both drivers knew exactly what they were doing. Based on previous incursions, Max assumed Lewis would avoid the contact as he had done. Lewis “could” have avoided it but decided that enough was enough and kept it firmly planted

Stewards decision was pretty much correct. Racing incident with Lewis predominately at fault for causing the collision as he had the ability to avoid it. But nonetheless Max also had no business to close the door that directly. Can we move on?

[NathanOlder]

Let’s start by saying both drivers knew exactly what they were doing. Based on previous incursions, Max assumed Lewis would avoid the contact as he had done. Lewis “could” have avoided it but decided that enough was enough and kept it firmly planted

Stewards decision was pretty much correct. Racing incident with Lewis predominately at fault for causing the collision as he had the ability to avoid it. But nonetheless Max also had no business to close the door that directly. Can we move on?

I think that seems fairly accurate, and think the penalty was harsh for Lewis, and very harsh for Massa in India. Both the cars on the outside were aggressive with their closing of the door and they both paid a heavier penalty in the incident itself.

I would call both racing incidents.

[AeroDynamic]

Let’s start by saying both drivers knew exactly what they were doing. Based on previous incursions, Max assumed Lewis would avoid the contact as he had done. Lewis “could” have avoided it but decided that enough was enough and kept it firmly planted

Stewards decision was pretty much correct. Racing incident with Lewis predominately at fault for causing the collision as he had the ability to avoid it. But nonetheless Max also had no business to close the door that directly. Can we move on?

I think that seems fairly accurate, and think the penalty was harsh for Lewis, and very harsh for Massa in India. Both the cars on the outside were aggressive with their closing of the door and they both paid a heavier penalty in the incident itself.

I would call both racing incidents.

The lobbying from RBR is why there was the harsh penalty.

[izzy]

Let’s start by saying both drivers knew exactly what they were doing. Based on previous incursions, Max assumed Lewis would avoid the contact as he had done. Lewis “could” have avoided it but decided that enough was enough and kept it firmly planted

Stewards decision was pretty much correct. Racing incident with Lewis predominately at fault for causing the collision as he had the ability to avoid it. But nonetheless Max also had no business to close the door that directly. Can we move on?

Anyone can hear on Lewis' onboard that he was off the throttle backing out of it.