Fantasy F1 hardware & development

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Joined: 13 Oct 2019, 03:02

Re: Red Bull RB18

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SiLo wrote:
16 Mar 2022, 18:57
AR3-GP wrote:
16 Mar 2022, 16:49
Just_a_fan wrote:
16 Mar 2022, 11:25

And a system could be standardised just as the engine ECU is a standard item. Standard system with standard components and just let the teams finesse the "maps" their cars run.
Cars would probably get heavier.
Maybe, hard to tell really. But reducing weight shouldn't be coming from screwing around with suspension regs, it should come from elsewhere.

Some of it likely comes from crash tests getting ever more stringent, these always add weight.

Indy Car is 150lbs lighter and they deal with way bigger shunts than F1 cars. I’d rather crash one of them vs. an F1 car from what I have seen.

I’m not sure why F1 needs road relevance. It never had road relevance. That’s what sports car / prototype racing has been.

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SiLo
130
Joined: 25 Jul 2010, 19:09

Re: Red Bull RB18

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Hoffman900 wrote:
16 Mar 2022, 19:02
SiLo wrote:
16 Mar 2022, 18:57
AR3-GP wrote:
16 Mar 2022, 16:49


Cars would probably get heavier.
Maybe, hard to tell really. But reducing weight shouldn't be coming from screwing around with suspension regs, it should come from elsewhere.

Some of it likely comes from crash tests getting ever more stringent, these always add weight.

Indy Car is 150lbs lighter and they deal with way bigger shunts than F1 cars. I’d rather crash one of them vs. an F1 car from what I have seen.

I’m not sure why F1 needs road relevance. It never had road relevance. That’s what sports car / prototype racing has been.
Just because they have bigger crashes doesn't mean their crash structures are any stronger. They also have no batteries. Anyways, we are getting off topic.
Felipe Baby!

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
591
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Red Bull RB18

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Hoffman900 wrote:
16 Mar 2022, 19:02
SiLo wrote:
16 Mar 2022, 18:57
AR3-GP wrote:
16 Mar 2022, 16:49


Cars would probably get heavier.
Maybe, hard to tell really. But reducing weight shouldn't be coming from screwing around with suspension regs, it should come from elsewhere.

Some of it likely comes from crash tests getting ever more stringent, these always add weight.

Indy Car is 150lbs lighter and they deal with way bigger shunts than F1 cars. I’d rather crash one of them vs. an F1 car from what I have seen.

I’m not sure why F1 needs road relevance. It never had road relevance. That’s what sports car / prototype racing has been.
That 150lb difference won't be safety related kit, however, it'll be the battery and associated gubbins. The hybrid stuff adds a whole lot of mass.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

JPower
JPower
43
Joined: 23 Feb 2021, 05:06

Re: Red Bull RB18

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Just_a_fan wrote:
16 Mar 2022, 19:08

That 150lb difference won't be safety related kit, however, it'll be the battery and associated gubbins. The hybrid stuff adds a whole lot of mass.
And will be added to IndyCar here shortly.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
621
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Fantasy F1 hardware & development

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Hoffman900 wrote:
15 Mar 2022, 16:54
Anyone remember when the snobby new car press would rip on the Corvette for having a leaf spring? Ignorance is bliss.
the 'single wishbone' independent suspension was still winning F1 races on the 1958 Cooper
(Cooper having started with 2 Fiat 'Topolino' front ends making their c.1949 Formula 500cc racer)
the earlier Cobras had this sort of suspension - ok until tyres became wide and 'square-profile' iirc said Eric Hauser

1963 Corvette irs hadn't limitations wrongly assumed to be from leaf spring location of the tops of the wheelposts
its driveshafts were non-plunging so acted as top locating members - its spring was plunging so inactive in this location
that's how the press was wrong
at this time the Jaguar E type etc also used this driveshaft-location method (but with coil springs)
that ACB Chapman seems to have invented this (for bottom location on Lotus 12 race strut-type rear suspension)

the leaf spring also provided friction damping
(cars having managed for many years without any other means of locating the wheels or damping their motion)

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Stu
Moderator
Joined: 02 Nov 2019, 10:05
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Fantasy F1 hardware & development

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
17 Mar 2022, 12:18
Hoffman900 wrote:
15 Mar 2022, 16:54
Anyone remember when the snobby new car press would rip on the Corvette for having a leaf spring? Ignorance is bliss.
the 'single wishbone' independent suspension was still winning F1 races on the 1958 Cooper
(Cooper having started with 2 Fiat 'Topolino' front ends making their c.1949 Formula 500cc racer)
the earlier Cobras had this sort of suspension - ok until tyres became wide and 'square-profile' iirc said Eric Hauser

1963 Corvette irs hadn't limitations wrongly assumed to be from leaf spring location of the tops of the wheelposts
its driveshafts were non-plunging so acted as top locating members - its spring was plunging so inactive in this location
that's how the press was wrong
at this time the Jaguar E type etc also used this driveshaft-location method (but with coil springs)
that ACB Chapman seems to have invented this (for bottom location on Lotus 12 race strut-type rear suspension)

the leaf spring also provided friction damping
(cars having managed for many years without any other means of locating the wheels or damping their motion)
I’ve just re-read this and thought of something (that I find interesting/curious), after having developed the Chapman Strut (largely used in his sports-racers), for F1 he continued with multi-link and wishbone designs in F1 (equally spaced from the hub centre, because that is good engineering practice).
Then in the early nineties (I think!!?) Williams introduced the concept of the lower a-arm running for-aft of the drive-shaft with a more extreme upper a-arm. There was quite a bit written in the engineering side of the press about how that affected (negatively) the various structures/forces in the rear suspension. Of course, once everyone realised that the aero benefit outweighed the mass increase, they all followed suit.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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Stu
Moderator
Joined: 02 Nov 2019, 10:05
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Fantasy F1 hardware & development

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If teams were given this years rules but told “of the three primary downforce producing devices in the regulations, you may have only two”, which two would they be best advised to choose?
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
333
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: Fantasy F1 hardware & development

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Stu wrote:
23 Mar 2022, 20:39
If teams were given this years rules but told “of the three primary downforce producing devices in the regulations, you may have only two”, which two would they be best advised to choose?
Floor and front wing. Front wing provides aero balance and some front tire management. Floor makes efficient downforce at speed.

DOA
DOA
0
Joined: 16 Mar 2011, 16:09

Re: Fantasy F1 hardware & development

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A few things to consider here:

1: Suspension (geometry and control elements) has very little effect on the performance of modern F1 cars. Go take a look at the geometry of most F1 cars and you note that, not only does the basic geometry drive extremely low values of installation stiffness (so it all deflects all over the place anyway), but it is very far from optimal for mechanical grip purposes. Add in the undamped spring element that is the tyre and in reality, the suspension affects only a very small envelope of the overall vehicle performance. Aero is king, long live the king...

2: Active suspension is NOT cheap or simple to implement in a light, reliable package. Period. Full stop. Even a low frequency, semi active hydraulic system in series with conventional spring/damper units (think Aston Martin Valkyrie) requires multiple moog valves, incredibly expensive hydraulic pumps (sure F1 cars already use massively expensive pumps, but you still have to increase the system capacity to account for the extra overhead), actuators, controllers, wiring, hydraulic piping, accumulators etc, etc, etc ad infinitum. Thats a lot of weight, complexity and a LOT of cost, all to maybe control the ride frequency up to the 3-5hz range. Sure, its eminently doable, but why bother with the weight\cost\complexity and reduce the technical differences between the cars? Want to upgrade that to a system that runs the full car? Well for that you need to cover an extremely wide frequency spectrum of movement and the system requirements, potentially, get to the point of no return on your investment. It was certainly worthwhile when cars weighed very little in the 90's but you would have to question the validity now that cars are so heavy in the first place.

Point 1 effectively covers why RB are using technology from the dawn of wheeled transport, if not before that. Efficient, simple and sod the geometry. Point 2 covers a view of the active hardware only, and doesnt consider the control/simulation, etc, etc side fo things (as the world just got really complicated in the last few decades so you need a million staff to operate anything at that level) in the hope of highlighting that, whilst active suspension can indeed do a great many things to improve performance, it is by no means an, "easy" fix for any of F1's many issues. It also disregards the potentially significant increase in potential downforce generation's effect on the drivers, grip levels and ultimate lap times. F1 doesn't need cars to get faster, it needs cars to get lighter, more efficient and more "dynamic" so that good drivers can shine and frankly, anything that "commonises" the cars, beyond electrical control systems (to ensure regulation compliance) simply dilutes the spectacle from an engineering perspective. Of course, all of this is only one opinion, and we all know they are like arseholes....

On a side note, tuned mass dampers may be a cheap, light and easy fix for some of the aero issues... Or I could be wrong...

As a post note, someone above did ask where Dave Williams is. Sadly, he passed away earlier in the year :cry: