The Road to the 50% Thermally Efficient F1 Internal Combustion Engine

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Airshifter
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Re: The Road to the 50% Thermally Efficient F1 Internal Combustion Engine

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gruntguru wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:00 pm
Airshifter wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:50 pm
I was actually surprised that cars were approaching 11K.
No surprise. Under the rules, maximum fuel is only available from 10,500 - 15,000 rpm. Friction and other losses mean the lower part of that range is preferred so teams generally operate somewhere between 10,000 and 11,500.
I guess having rules so in depth makes it easy for them to decide how they want to build the torque curve. =D>

It really makes me wonder what direction things would go if not so limited by the small print of the regs.

johnny comelately
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Re: The Road to the 50% Thermally Efficient F1 Internal Combustion Engine

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Can anyone get something from this? I can't


palaboran
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Re: The Road to the 50% Thermally Efficient F1 Internal Combustion Engine

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Why do they limit ICEs to reciprocating engines? How about gas turbine/generator power?

Tommy Cookers
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Re: The Road to the 50% Thermally Efficient F1 Internal Combustion Engine

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palaboran wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 2:14 pm
Why do they limit ICEs to reciprocating engines? How about gas turbine/generator power?
because small gas turbines are inherently inefficient ?
Mr Google tells us so

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Big Tea
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Re: The Road to the 50% Thermally Efficient F1 Internal Combustion Engine

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palaboran wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 2:14 pm
Why do they limit ICEs to reciprocating engines? How about gas turbine/generator power?
I was thinking the same wile watching this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7INxIkReNM
its about the Norton Rotary (Wankel)
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

gruntguru
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Re: The Road to the 50% Thermally Efficient F1 Internal Combustion Engine

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Airshifter wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:53 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:00 pm
Airshifter wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:50 pm
I was actually surprised that cars were approaching 11K.
No surprise. Under the rules, maximum fuel is only available from 10,500 - 15,000 rpm. Friction and other losses mean the lower part of that range is preferred so teams generally operate somewhere between 10,000 and 11,500.
I guess having rules so in depth makes it easy for them to decide how they want to build the torque curve. =D>

It really makes me wonder what direction things would go if not so limited by the small print of the regs.
Totally understand why they set the rule that way though. Max fuel (max power) only available from 10,500 - 15,000 and constant torque below that. Without that shaping, the engine designers would be in a constant race for ever lower rpm in pursuit of efficiency (and power) - detracting from the sound spectacle at the track.
je suis charlie

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Zynerji
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Re: The Road to the 50% Thermally Efficient F1 Internal Combustion Engine

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gruntguru wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 11:08 pm
Airshifter wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:53 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:00 pm

No surprise. Under the rules, maximum fuel is only available from 10,500 - 15,000 rpm. Friction and other losses mean the lower part of that range is preferred so teams generally operate somewhere between 10,000 and 11,500.
I guess having rules so in depth makes it easy for them to decide how they want to build the torque curve. =D>

It really makes me wonder what direction things would go if not so limited by the small print of the regs.
Totally understand why they set the rule that way though. Max fuel (max power) only available from 10,500 - 15,000 and constant torque below that. Without that shaping, the engine designers would be in a constant race for ever lower rpm in pursuit of efficiency (and power) - detracting from the sound spectacle at the track.
Like 4k rpm turbo diesels...🙄

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Airshifter
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Re: The Road to the 50% Thermally Efficient F1 Internal Combustion Engine

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I loved the sounds of the screaming V engines as much as anyone else, but when regs are fashioned with exhaust notes rather than efficiency in mind it kind of delays the development towards higher efficiency.

If the formula leads them away from anything the industry might use, it just proves that "efficiency" in a market with no demand can be had. If they allowed more leeway it might lead to tech that the consumer market actually uses, rather than useless tech.


And as for 4K diesel exhaust notes, in some cases they can be quite pleasing. And in general from what I've seen, it's hard to conceal the exhaust notes of higher output engines even at lower revs.

johnny comelately
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Re: The Road to the 50% Thermally Efficient F1 Internal Combustion Engine

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This is about hydrogen combustion, from one of the foremost specialists in the field of combustion, but there is a lot that can be connected to petrol combustion IMHO.
One thing is the increased flame speed when lamda goes lean, to a point and THEN it slows down.
Guessing the F1 engine people looked at that as a decision input.

johnny comelately
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Re: The Road to the 50% Thermally Efficient F1 Internal Combustion Engine

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At the 8 minute mark there is a spark plug of a type that we used too.
At the time it was for ionising the chamber area, but from what I understand that is what happens anyway.
So the main advantage was to produce a jet flame and probably a quicker ionisation process.

johnny comelately
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Re: The Road to the 50% Thermally Efficient F1 Internal Combustion Engine

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3 years ago from IAV
Technology transfer?


johnny comelately
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Re: The Road to the 50% Thermally Efficient F1 Internal Combustion Engine

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Fuel heating has been mentioned here before, but I didnt know this Mahle system existed.
This would make sense to help optimise the combustion, particularly with the ethanol.

johnny comelately
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Re: The Road to the 50% Thermally Efficient F1 Internal Combustion Engine

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A revisit to 2016, where the core temperatures were mentioned @ 2750 degrees C
Which is interesting in relation to lean of peak effect
As much as anything it shows the different temperature measurement points positionally and timewise and averages (which is what happens with exhaust temperature measurements).


johnny comelately
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Re: The Road to the 50% Thermally Efficient F1 Internal Combustion Engine

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Looking at the 919 Porsche V4 engine configuration, their use of one bank's exhaust for the turbo and the other bank's exhaust for the the MGU-H seems wise, is there a rule in F1 prohibiting that?
The balancing of back pressures method would be interesting to know, any ideas?
FIA = prohibition kings

johnny comelately
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Re: The Road to the 50% Thermally Efficient F1 Internal Combustion Engine

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Advancements in other fields: Wartsila. Quite a different injection system.

Wärtsilä 31SG, the world's most efficient 4-stroke engine
In the price-sensitive field of electrical power generation, efficiency and flexibility are the hottest commodities. Wärtsilä's newest engine marks a step change in both, delivering an industry-leading efficiency of over 50 percent. The secret to its success is a ground-breaking new design, conceived entirely from scratch, that makes it tough enough to withstand the heavy mechanical loading associated with two-stage turbocharging.
https://www.wartsila.com/insights/artic ... oke-engine

and the lean burn method animation: