Pre-silly-season-silliness.

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djos
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Re: Pre-silly-season-silliness.

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Hehe, Josh Revell has released his video on the Oscar affair. 🤣

The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

101FlyingDutchman
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Re: Pre-silly-season-silliness.

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djos wrote:
Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:54 am
I’m not going to argue with you, it’s been very well documented that the MCL36 is still a “brake, then turn car”.
Then RIC be screwed back in an RB18 too because that’s exactly the driving style he’s adopted to get the most out of the current generation of floors

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djos
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Re: Pre-silly-season-silliness.

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Interesting, I’ve seen max trail braking which is what Daniel prefers.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Zynerji
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Re: Pre-silly-season-silliness.

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djos wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:37 am
Interesting, I’ve seen max trail braking which is what Daniel prefers.
I feel that trail braking came into F1 heavily with Hamilton. You can see it way more than others on 2007 replays.

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djos
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Re: Pre-silly-season-silliness.

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:16 am
djos wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:37 am
Interesting, I’ve seen max trail braking which is what Daniel prefers.
I feel that trail braking came into F1 heavily with Hamilton. You can see it way more than others on 2007 replays.
I was under the impression that Shuey was responsible for bringing in trailbraking.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Zynerji
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Re: Pre-silly-season-silliness.

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djos wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:21 am
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:16 am
djos wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:37 am
Interesting, I’ve seen max trail braking which is what Daniel prefers.
I feel that trail braking came into F1 heavily with Hamilton. You can see it way more than others on 2007 replays.
I was under the impression that Shuey was responsible for bringing in trailbraking.
Maybe. I just remember watching the 2007 season on F1TV last year, and it was the defining difference between Hamilton and Alonso, IMO.

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djos
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Re: Pre-silly-season-silliness.

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I agree Lewis was one of the early adopters.

I have a vague recollection of Mark Webber discussing following Michael Schumacher at one race where he said that that’s when he realised what Michael was doing.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Pre-silly-season-silliness.

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Trail braking is not a new thing and certainly not brought in by either Lewis or Michael - it's been a staple of racing for many, many years. What Michael did do is use the brake and throttle together to alter the balance of the car in the corner - this is something he brought in from karting and is really only possible with the left-foot braking / two-pedal layout that was being brought in at that time. Doing this, there might be an increase in throttle even under braking to change the way the car rotates. I would expect that this is now a normal thing to do as so many of the drivers have come up from karting and so have used it at some point. Lewis, when he first arrived in F1, used to "back in" the car in to the corner in a manner not unlike that used by bike racers. It allowed him to brake late and carry speed in to the apex. It did bring him a reputation of being hard on the tyres at the time, as I recall.

Interestingly, de la Rosa has said that both Lewis and Fernando are really good at keeping pace in the car even as the tyres decline. Something he saw when working with them at McLaren. Something to do with being able to keep the car balanced and so maximise the grip in to the corner where others start to struggle. It was suggested as a reason why Lewis, and Alonso, can be out qualified by team mates but then have much better pace during the race. The team mate maximises the pace over a single lap but can't keep it up as the tyres wear where Fernando and Lewis can.

Fernando also developed a strange technique in the Michelin days - the fronts were stronger than the rears and he would deliberately force the front to understeer on entry so that the rears had time to settle in to the corner. He would then unwind the lock and apply power much earlier than others could manage.
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Pre-silly-season-silliness.

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:07 am
... Fernando also developed a strange technique in the Michelin days - the fronts were stronger than the rears and he would deliberately force the front to understeer on entry so that the rears had time to settle in to the corner. He would then unwind the lock and apply power much earlier than others could manage.
the days when cars eg Renault had 70% of their weight on the rear axle ?

Moss co-wrote about so could be seen as 'inventing' trail braking - though SCCA trainers might make the claim
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Pre-silly-season-silliness.

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:55 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:07 am
... Fernando also developed a strange technique in the Michelin days - the fronts were stronger than the rears and he would deliberately force the front to understeer on entry so that the rears had time to settle in to the corner. He would then unwind the lock and apply power much earlier than others could manage.
the days when cars eg Renault had 70% of their weight on the rear axle ?

Moss could be seen as 'inventing' trail braking - though SCCA trainers might make the claim
It was, I believe, to do with the Michelin tyres having a square shoulder and the fronts having more bite on turn in than the rears wanted to stay with. So he just used some self-induced understeer to effectively make the fronts less "bitey" and thus gave the rears time to settle. That's as I remember it being explained a few years ago, anyway.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Stu
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Re: Pre-silly-season-silliness.

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:55 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:07 am
... Fernando also developed a strange technique in the Michelin days - the fronts were stronger than the rears and he would deliberately force the front to understeer on entry so that the rears had time to settle in to the corner. He would then unwind the lock and apply power much earlier than others could manage.
the days when cars eg Renault had 70% of their weight on the rear axle ?

Moss co-wrote about so could be seen as 'inventing' trail braking - though SCCA trainers might make the claim
I also recall some Moss interviews where he discussed it (and using it) with relation to controlling the attitude and weight transfer.

The Alonso ‘trick’ reminds me how we used to drive the original Mini, except with those it would induce a four wheel drift that would let you keep the boot in and kill the under steer.
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Pre-silly-season-silliness.

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:07 am
Trail braking is not a new thing and certainly not brought in by either Lewis or Michael - it's been a staple of racing for many, many years. What Michael did do is use the brake and throttle together to alter the balance of the car in the corner - this is something he brought in from karting and is really only possible with the left-foot braking / two-pedal layout that was being brought in at that time.
This is trail braking... And was there for decades.

If ir recall, what Michael did was focus on minimizing the number of jerky pedal movements through the corner into one smooth blend, and especially the easing off the brake as downforce reduced and then mofulating throttle to balance somewhere in between there and corner exit. This is very different to the sharp slamming of the brakes and furious stabbing of the gas pedal that you would see by most in the eighties early nineties. Remember that old video where they compare his pedal traces ti Barichello's that basically it.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Pre-silly-season-silliness.

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:57 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:07 am
Trail braking is not a new thing and certainly not brought in by either Lewis or Michael - it's been a staple of racing for many, many years. What Michael did do is use the brake and throttle together to alter the balance of the car in the corner - this is something he brought in from karting and is really only possible with the left-foot braking / two-pedal layout that was being brought in at that time.
This is trail braking... And was there for decades.
Trail braking is the method where the brakes are applied hard in a straight line and then reduced as the wheel is turned in to the corner. Applied correctly, the brakes are applied fully and then reduced to zero at the apex. Heel and toe braking allows the down change on approach to the apex and then the throttle is applied after the apex.

How is this unknown on a technical racing forum? I was doing this in my first car as a young man on the road.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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PlatinumZealot
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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 8:55 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:57 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:07 am
Trail braking is not a new thing and certainly not brought in by either Lewis or Michael - it's been a staple of racing for many, many years. What Michael did do is use the brake and throttle together to alter the balance of the car in the corner - this is something he brought in from karting and is really only possible with the left-foot braking / two-pedal layout that was being brought in at that time.
This is trail braking... And was there for decades.
Trail braking is the method where the brakes are applied hard in a straight line and then reduced as the wheel is turned in to the corner. Applied correctly, the brakes are applied fully and then reduced to zero at the apex. Heel and toe braking allows the down change on approach to the apex and then the throttle is applied after the apex.

How is this unknown on a technical racing forum? I was doing this in my first car as a young man on the road.
I agree. But what you describe about Micheal is trail braking and i was pointing out that he brought something more special, way more nuanced than simple trail braking.
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CHT
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Re: Pre-silly-season-silliness.

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Just curious if we can expect to see SV following KR and MS's footsteps by returning to F1 after taking a 2-3 years sabbatical from the sport. 2026 may open up many new possibilities for German WDC drivers like SV. e.g. Team Audi (2026), or even Merc (after LH retirement).