HCCI

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
johnny comelately
johnny comelately
75
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: HCCI

Post

MSD assisted, a tad not competitive but instructive for me

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: HCCI

Post

johnny comelately wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 7:03 am
J.A.W. wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 6:53 am
Perhaps the claims for low NOx emissions are related?

There is plenty of electrical potential to create O3 onboard,
& add an H2O2 compound via the fuel, for a fierce but clean catalytic action...
I dont understand chemistry well enough to have an opinion on the ozone production and fuel interaction with that.
But re NOx all I understand is that in any combustion with air (78% N) the NOx can form but the lower the relevant temp it is less??
One point in all this is that the formula is trying to be road and environment relative, despite the irony
I'd doubt that final point, given the hide-bound limits on advanced ignition imposed for most of the past decade,
& given the efforts of the Team Engineers to work around those arbitrary impositions, 'line overstepping' or no.

Likely, its an unintended consequence, which serendipitously scores on the faux 'road-relevance' FIA mantra..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

User avatar
Airshifter
10
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:20 pm

Re: HCCI

Post

johnny comelately wrote:
Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:07 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:10 pm
johnny comelately wrote:
Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:12 am

Yes, but I think the prechamber jets create the main chamber pressure rise first to "autoignite" the end gases.
It is the control for reliable predictability of the autoignition phase that is key
I don’t see the jets coming. It is just the shockwave from the pre-chamber which travel even faster.
The prechamber spark initiation is what gives the predictability and therefore control.
Consistent timing being one of the challenges with HCCI.
IMHO
In a sense they have taken it to such an extreme that they are adjusting (conventional) timing within the prechamber spark, to coincide with the pressure rise timing created by the engine rev and mixture points, to arrive at a point of just less than we think of at detonation. In a sense, almost a controlled pre detonation combustion event IMHO.

When we consider how small the prechamber is in relation to the cylinder it's fairly amazing that they can control the appropriate pressure rises to such a degree. I'm sure timing control and the factors involved would make us long for the day of simple vacuum pots and centrifugal weights to adjust timing curves.
Last edited by Airshifter on Tue May 03, 2022 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: HCCI

Post

johnny comelately wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 1:53 am
MSD assisted, a tad not competitive but instructive for me
Utterly pathetic.

Turning a Wankel rotary piston engine inside out is pretty much a high-tech scam,
fundamentally its architecture precludes 'clean green fuel efficient' usage, & you
need only compare the claimed unit-output/power-density with a current kid's 85cc
2-stroke MX bike.

This one shows how Honda featured its "Activated Radical Combustion" 2-stroke
road-legal dual-purpose bike - before they made a Corporate Ethos call to kill 2T:

"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
75
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: HCCI

Post

J.A.W. wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 3:45 am
johnny comelately wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 1:53 am
MSD assisted, a tad not competitive but instructive for me
Utterly pathetic.

Turning a Wankel rotary piston engine inside out is pretty much a high-tech scam,
fundamentally its architecture precludes 'clean green fuel efficient' usage, & you
need only compare the claimed unit-output/power-density with a current kid's 85cc
2-stroke MX bike.

This one shows how Honda featured its "Activated Radical Combustion" 2-stroke
road-legal dual-purpose bike - before they made a Corporate Ethos call to kill 2T:

Lucky I said it was instructive for me then :wink:

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
509
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: HCCI

Post

J.A.W. wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 3:45 am
johnny comelately wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 1:53 am
MSD assisted, a tad not competitive but instructive for me
Utterly pathetic.

Turning a Wankel rotary piston engine inside out is pretty much a high-tech scam,
fundamentally its architecture precludes 'clean green fuel efficient' usage, & you
need only compare the claimed unit-output/power-density with a current kid's 85cc
2-stroke MX bike.

This one shows how Honda featured its "Activated Radical Combustion" 2-stroke
road-legal dual-purpose bike - before they made a Corporate Ethos call to kill 2T:

Interesting that you think it is a scam. I think the liquid piston design is proper advancement on the rotary based on all the different 3rd parties that have been documenting it. Definitely looking forward to these engines being widely commercialized.

The Wankel is inherently flawed so we have to move on.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

sosic2121
sosic2121
13
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: HCCI

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 2:48 pm
J.A.W. wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 3:45 am
Turning a Wankel rotary piston engine inside out is pretty much a high-tech scam,
Why did they do that? Have they solved any of Wankel's issues or are they just moving them around.
They still have apex seals. Chamber doesn't have hot and cold side, but piston has. Now there are 3 spark plugs, intakes and exhausts...

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
509
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: HCCI

Post

sosic2121 wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 4:43 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 2:48 pm
J.A.W. wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 3:45 am
Turning a Wankel rotary piston engine inside out is pretty much a high-tech scam,
Why did they do that? Have they solved any of Wankel's issues or are they just moving them around.
They still have apex seals. Chamber doesn't have hot and cold side, but piston has. Now there are 3 spark plugs, intakes and exhausts...
The seal dividing the phases is static so the lubrication is easier and more easily cooled.
The combustion chamber area in in the housing so you can get a better shape with high compression ratio if needed.
One spark plug per chamber.
Simpler rotor design you dont have that apex to deal with and you make it lighter.
Potential for direct injeection too.
Among other things.

I'm no engine expert, but the design solves many issues.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
75
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: HCCI

Post

It was posted because of the hydrogen combustion being visible
It seems to be a very quick burn from what is read and therefore relates (distantly) to HCCI.
I did say distantly :wink:
Remember the Mazda 787B did win Le Mans with a tremendous effort. With Jacky Ickx involvement.
The BSFC was not so good though.
When they are turbocharged, they have to replace the standard apex seals which are carbon based with steel ones to prevent breakage and the extra weight helps with centrifugal force.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
75
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: HCCI

Post

Worth a listen/ read
Didnt know about RCCI

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
75
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: HCCI

Post

A 1-D explanation of detonation and non detonation occurrences showing the shockwave effect

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
75
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: HCCI

Post

Further to the shockwave effect, originally I thought it could be part of the enhancement of inducing compression ignition. But in the following lecture it shows a demonstration of using sound waves to extinguish a fire, albeit in completely different environs. I do not understand the linkage between pressure/shock waves and sound waves.
1:25 time stamp.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: HCCI

Post

johnny comelately wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 9:39 pm
Further to the shockwave effect, originally I thought it could be part of the enhancement of inducing compression ignition. But in the lecture it shows a demonstration of using sound waves to extinguish a fire, albeit in completely different environs. I do not understand the linkage between pressure/shock waves and sound waves.
Sound is an artefact of the shockwave in the medium through which it transits.
Think of 'water hammer' effects in your plumbing..

Ever experienced a fast low fly-past by a jet fighter at near-transonic speed?
Or the blast from a top-fuel dragster nearby?
A large male lion bellowing out a roar, in your face?

Ambient atmospheric air is forced into particular reaction for use as the primary gaseous
constituent in a 'controlled burn' situation, when constrained/pressurised/seeded with fuel/ignited/released...
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
75
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: HCCI

Post

Below is a summary of a research paper by Robert W. Dibble showing intake temperature being manipulated to achieve (inferred) HCCI in a stationary gas ICE, a huge challenge in my opinion.
In other papers he discusses oil's role in preignition (relevant to F1 previously) and ethanol characteristics in relation to preignition.
The more that research is exposed the more respect for the engine developers in F1, something we take for granted.
Dibble has many relevant and astounding research papers , links at the end.

2009-06-15
Demonstrating Optimum HCCI Combustion with Advanced Control Technology 2009-01-1885
We have converted a Caterpillar 3406 natural gas spark ignited engine to HCCI mode and used it as a test bed for demonstrating advanced control methodologies. Converting the engine required modification of most engine systems: piston geometry, starting, fueling, boosting, and (most importantly) controls. We implemented a thermal management system consisting of a recuperator that transfers heat from exhaust to intake gases and a dual intake manifold that permits precise cylinder-by-cylinder ignition control.
Advanced control methodologies are used for (1) minimizing cylinder-to-cylinder combustion timing differences caused by small variations in temperature or compression ratio; (2) finding the combustion timing that minimizes fuel consumption; and (3) tuning the controller parameters to improve transient response. Tasks 2 and 3 were accomplished with extremum seeking, a non-model- based optimization scheme that may help deliver a practical solution to the challenging problem of HCCI engine control.

http://profiles.sae.org/robert_dibble/
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert-Dibble-3

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
75
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: HCCI

Post

The above came from this video: