Opinion on 2022 regulations

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selvam_e2002
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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bauc wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:22 am
djones wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:00 pm
2022 regulations?

Let's be honest, they are a complete failure if the goal was to bring the racing closer and make F1 more fun to watch.

In 2021 we had a season that literally went to the last race. This year we have a big spread between the cars and one manufacturer incredibly dominant to the point where the season was essentially over at the halfway point. I don't care who you support, a 116-point lead with 6 races to go is boring to watch.

All this money the teams have spent on 2022 and for nothing. They should have just left the rules as they were and played around with the tyres to make things more fun. Softer compounds to make every race a guaranteed 2 stop at minimum for example.
Completely agree.

P.S Aesthetically as well they have failed to produce sexy looking cars (personal opinion)
completely agree. following closely does not help to over take. last race we saw drs trains . Really frustrated to watch F1 now a days. It should be more fun and interesting to watch but not.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:23 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:39 am
jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:15 am


I think my problem with the 22 rules at the moment is while they do allow cars to follow a bit closer, all it's doing is allowing them to be 5-10m ahead into the braking zone with DRS rather than level. Would be interesting to see some DRS-les races at tracks where overtaking is possible and keep it for the Imolas/Monacos where overtaking is nigh impossible.
Isn't the side effect of allowing the cars to follow closer in the corners always going to be more difficulty in overtaking on the straights? Less messed up air hitting the car behind in the corners also means less tow on the straights. So "closer following" was never going to mean "more overtaking" even if the media talking heads kept saying it would.
What some people miss is that the new regulations are not a fix for cars that are inherently slow in a straight line trying to overtake cars that are the fastest in the speed traps. It doesn't matter what regulations you have if the car is a dog on the straights. Cars like the RB, Alpine, Ferrari have few issues overtaking in the last few weekends even in a place like Hungary! Where we saw just last year a 2.5 seconds faster Hamilton unable to overtake an Alpine. Now look how easily Leclerc went around Russell at the same track this season. They massively benefitting from being able to follow closely out of the final corner at most circuits.
"Car that's faster in a straight line is faster in a straight line". Thanks, got it. Nothing to do with the point being discussed, but thanks anyway.

Back to the point: the current regs do not inherently assist with overtaking because the new cars give less of a tow than the previous generation cars. That's the general point being made. There is no need to make it team or driver specific when we are talking generally. If two cars have similar straight line speed, being able to follow closer in the preceding corner gets them closer at the start of the straight but the reduced tow means the overtake is no more simple than it was before. Add in a DRS train and you can sit there for lap after lap unless you have an inherent straight line speed advantage.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:27 pm
djones wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:00 pm
2022 regulations?

Let's be honest, they are a complete failure if the goal was to bring the racing closer and make F1 more fun to watch.
It doesn't matter what ruleset you have. If there is a discrepancy in aptitude, some teams will build better cars than others. If you want rules that guarantee closeness no matter how terrible the car is, you will enjoy GT3 Balance of Performance racing.

I find most of the whining about being close or being able to overtake tends to come from a certain pov....because a certain team is failing, built a terrible car and is slow on the straights. If people would stop being so blinkered to their favorite team, they would see there is nothing wrong with the regulations.

Cars look fantastic, and can follow closely when similarly matched. Regulations cannot make a slow car overtake a faster one. Regulations cannot make a bad design beat a good design. If there is any failure to point to, it's the team that you like which has failed in one or multiple facets
The faster cars are faster than the slower cars. The rules haven't changed that. Wow, such insight.

Much of the "racing" has been dull. There have been some good races but others have been boring for many drivers being in a DRS trains and waiting for a mistake to be made. That's a fairly normal spread of races in any season - some good, some dire and the rest somewhere in between.

As for looking fantastic, that's a subjective position.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:53 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:39 am
jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:15 am


I think my problem with the 22 rules at the moment is while they do allow cars to follow a bit closer, all it's doing is allowing them to be 5-10m ahead into the braking zone with DRS rather than level. Would be interesting to see some DRS-les races at tracks where overtaking is possible and keep it for the Imolas/Monacos where overtaking is nigh impossible.
Isn't the side effect of allowing the cars to follow closer in the corners always going to be more difficulty in overtaking on the straights? Less messed up air hitting the car behind in the corners also means less tow on the straights. So "closer following" was never going to mean "more overtaking" even if the media talking heads kept saying it would.
Yes. One of the side effects is likely a reduction of slipstream. I've always maintained more battles are what's wanted rather than more overtaking. DRS gives us load of overtakes, but they're generally sterile and dull.
I agree - it's the possibility of overtaking, preferably set up over the course of several corners, that's exciting. Knowing that you just have to get in to DRS range and then blow past is dull.

One of the amusing unintended consequences of the new regs is that they haven't increased overtaking but they have increased the ability to follow more closely. This means that even though there is no more overtaking, the media talking heads can get all excited when they see someone within half a second of someone else.

Some of the most fun things in recent years have been the "will he, won't he" moments such as when Lewis and Max variously chased each other from a decent time distance back and then managed to catch and pass within the limited laps remaining - there was no guarantee that either would pull it off. Or Fernando's brilliant blocking of Lewis in Hungary to help his team mate, similarly Sergio's similarly brilliant work doing the same thing in AD last season. That's excitement in racing, not plod round, get DRS, overtake. Repeat.

I think it's telling that most people find qualifying to be the best bit about an F1 weekend - it's pure and there is the "will he, won't he" excitement of a driver trying t pull off that special lap.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Big Tea
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:16 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:53 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:39 am

Isn't the side effect of allowing the cars to follow closer in the corners always going to be more difficulty in overtaking on the straights? Less messed up air hitting the car behind in the corners also means less tow on the straights. So "closer following" was never going to mean "more overtaking" even if the media talking heads kept saying it would.
Yes. One of the side effects is likely a reduction of slipstream. I've always maintained more battles are what's wanted rather than more overtaking. DRS gives us load of overtakes, but they're generally sterile and dull.
I agree - it's the possibility of overtaking, preferably set up over the course of several corners, that's exciting. Knowing that you just have to get in to DRS range and then blow past is dull.

One of the amusing unintended consequences of the new regs is that they haven't increased overtaking but they have increased the ability to follow more closely. This means that even though there is no more overtaking, the media talking heads can get all excited when they see someone within half a second of someone else.

Some of the most fun things in recent years have been the "will he, won't he" moments such as when Lewis and Max variously chased each other from a decent time distance back and then managed to catch and pass within the limited laps remaining - there was no guarantee that either would pull it off. Or Fernando's brilliant blocking of Lewis in Hungary to help his team mate, similarly Sergio's similarly brilliant work doing the same thing in AD last season. That's excitement in racing, not plod round, get DRS, overtake. Repeat.

I think it's telling that most people find qualifying to be the best bit about an F1 weekend - it's pure and there is the "will he, won't he" excitement of a driver trying t pull off that special lap.
Another case for allowing DRS from the same car only for 2 laps. The following car then has to fall back for a lap of 'go for it'
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Cs98
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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djones wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:00 pm
2022 regulations?

Let's be honest, they are a complete failure if the goal was to bring the racing closer and make F1 more fun to watch.

In 2021 we had a season that literally went to the last race. This year we have a big spread between the cars and one manufacturer incredibly dominant to the point where the season was essentially over at the halfway point. I don't care who you support, a 116-point lead with 6 races to go is boring to watch.

All this money the teams have spent on 2022 and for nothing. They should have just left the rules as they were and played around with the tyres to make things more fun. Softer compounds to make every race a guaranteed 2 stop at minimum for example.
The primary goal of the 2022 technical regulations was to allow cars to follow closer, which has been a resounding success. However, that is obviously not a guarantee of cars being equally competitive. And new regulations always run the risk of producing winners and losers. The relative competitiveness between teams is managed mostly with the cost cap, and wind tunnel limitations. Those regulations have not had sufficient time to take effect. Might take several years.

And then we have Merc dropping the ball and Ferrari not making the most out of the performance of their car. If Merc can produce a competitive car for 2023 and Ferrari can tighten up their reliability and strategy, I think the stage is set for an incredible season. Being able to follow so much better will make the racing much more entertaining provided cars have similar performance. There's no reason at least RB, Merc and Ferrari can't have similar performance next season.

AR3-GP
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:16 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:53 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:39 am

Isn't the side effect of allowing the cars to follow closer in the corners always going to be more difficulty in overtaking on the straights? Less messed up air hitting the car behind in the corners also means less tow on the straights. So "closer following" was never going to mean "more overtaking" even if the media talking heads kept saying it would.
Yes. One of the side effects is likely a reduction of slipstream. I've always maintained more battles are what's wanted rather than more overtaking. DRS gives us load of overtakes, but they're generally sterile and dull.
I agree - it's the possibility of overtaking, preferably set up over the course of several corners, that's exciting. Knowing that you just have to get in to DRS range and then blow past is dull.
Back to the point: the current regs do not inherently assist with overtaking because the new cars give less of a tow than the previous generation cars. That's the general point being made.

In one place you argue that all the driver has to do is line up for the DRS blow bys. In the next place you say the new cars give less tow and harder to overtake. So which one is it?

Are there DRS blow bys or not? Is it harder to overtake or not? I'm struggling to follow, no pun intended...

Just_a_fan
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:31 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:16 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:53 pm


Yes. One of the side effects is likely a reduction of slipstream. I've always maintained more battles are what's wanted rather than more overtaking. DRS gives us load of overtakes, but they're generally sterile and dull.
I agree - it's the possibility of overtaking, preferably set up over the course of several corners, that's exciting. Knowing that you just have to get in to DRS range and then blow past is dull.
Back to the point: the current regs do not inherently assist with overtaking because the new cars give less of a tow than the previous generation cars. That's the general point being made.

In one place you argue that all the driver has to do is line up for the DRS blow bys. In the next place you say the new cars give less tow and harder to overtake. So which one is it?

Are there DRS blow bys or not? Is it harder to overtake or not? I'm struggling to follow, no pun intended...
The first point was a general point about overtaking not being inherently exciting, especially where it can be done simply using something like DRS.

The second point was about the current cars giving less of a tow.

The two points are separate and were in entirely separate posts discussing different things. That you had to try to conflate them is your issue, not mine.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

mendis
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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I see most of people here hating 2022 regulations are Mercedes followers. It's understandable. When the year started and two teams were closely knitted, there were exciting races. Closer following, overtakes and re-overtakes were all there to be seen. Despite the lack of slipstreaming effect, there were still good overtakes across the grid. It's still even now the case in midfield. Ferrari dropped the ball midway through the season and Red Bull surged ahead that took steam off the front and add to that Mercedes' shoddy car, times now look dull at the front. Well funded teams dropping the ball or producing dog sh** car isn't a problem of 2022 regulations. Last year, it was Mercedes that dropped the ball and Red Bull did decent job that provided the spectacle. Imagine if Mercedes would have properly carried forward the advantage of F1 history's best car from 2020 to 2021. Nothing would have looked exciting. Expected teams not doing a good job on changing regulations is not a regulatory problem. Infact, closer following and difficulty in overtaking is the real essence of racing that was expected out of the regulations. There was even a consideration to remove DRS, but as Brawn had mentioned, it's necessary evil for now.

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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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mendis wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:49 pm
I see most of people here hating 2022 regulations are Mercedes followers. It's understandable. When the year started and two teams were closely knitted, there were exciting races. Closer following, overtakes and re-overtakes were all there to be seen. Despite the lack of slipstreaming effect, there were still good overtakes across the grid. It's still even now the case in midfield. Ferrari dropped the ball midway through the season and Red Bull surged ahead that took steam off the front and add to that Mercedes' shoddy car, times now look dull at the front. Well funded teams dropping the ball or producing dog sh** car isn't a problem of 2022 regulations. Last year, it was Mercedes that dropped the ball and Red Bull did decent job that provided the spectacle. Imagine if Mercedes would have properly carried forward the advantage of F1 history's best car from 2020 to 2021. Nothing would have looked exciting. Expected teams not doing a good job on changing regulations is not a regulatory problem. Infact, closer following and difficulty in overtaking is the real essence of racing that was expected out of the regulations. There was even a consideration to remove DRS, but as Brawn had mentioned, it's necessary evil for now.
Well said.

Maybe some people complaining should go and watch F2 where the cars are all the same, if they want to see more exciting racing.
Rule book is the same for the 10 teams across the grid....make as good car as you possibly can thats going to win you races...if its no good, you cant complain.
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

Just_a_fan
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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I see the usual suspects are intent on making the discussion a personal one rather than discuss the regulations and their effects.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

AR3-GP
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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mendis wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:49 pm
I see most of people here hating 2022 regulations are Mercedes followers. It's understandable. When the year started and two teams were closely knitted, there were exciting races. Closer following, overtakes and re-overtakes were all there to be seen. Despite the lack of slipstreaming effect, there were still good overtakes across the grid. It's still even now the case in midfield. Ferrari dropped the ball midway through the season and Red Bull surged ahead that took steam off the front and add to that Mercedes' shoddy car, times now look dull at the front. Well funded teams dropping the ball or producing dog sh** car isn't a problem of 2022 regulations. Last year, it was Mercedes that dropped the ball and Red Bull did decent job that provided the spectacle. Imagine if Mercedes would have properly carried forward the advantage of F1 history's best car from 2020 to 2021. Nothing would have looked exciting. Expected teams not doing a good job on changing regulations is not a regulatory problem. Infact, closer following and difficulty in overtaking is the real essence of racing that was expected out of the regulations. There was even a consideration to remove DRS, but as Brawn had mentioned, it's necessary evil for now.
I second this. If you'll notice, the issues being described here as failings of the regs (slip stream weakened, DRS trains, violent porpoising and bottoming etc) are largely just Mercedes specific issues.

Every driver and team principal up and down the grid has called these new regs a resounding success for close racing. Sainz started from the back in Monza and France and flew past everyone because the Ferrari has a good engine and decent straightline speed. Hamilton gets stuck in the pack in Imola and Monza because his car is draggy and right on cue, in comes the DRS train whining. Even Ocon was running rings around the midfield in Spa but I guess since Russell cannot pass Sainz with a parachute on his back, it's a regs problem, not a car problem.

The gall of people to try and claim there's been no improvement over last season. The same season where Hamilton couldn't pass Alonso in Hungary despite lapping over 2.5 seconds quicker. 1 year later, Hungary looks like an overtake fest.

mendis
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:01 pm
I see the usual suspects are intent on making the discussion a personal one rather than discuss the regulations and their effects.
Sorry but I have no intention of making it personal on anyone. But the trend is extremely obvious on this thread and I just called it out. It's not like if I didn't mention, it didn't exist. I hate to see the current situation of competition at the front, but I am not the one to blame regulations for it.

Fulcrum
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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My only complaint(s) are the aesthetics of the cars. Too large by volume, and too heavy. I hate the 18-inch wheels with an absolute passion, and I'm not especially keen on the profile of the rear wing assembly.

Cs98
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Re: Opinion on 2022 regulations

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The most important part of F1 entertainment has always been up to the teams, and that is producing competitive cars. Just because ones favourite team **** the bed doesn't mean the regulations need changing.

These regulations have actually accomplished something everyone was very sceptical of before the season, by allowing cars to follow closer. Now it's up to each and every team to produce a competitive car.