[MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2022 (Grand Prix Cars)

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LegendaryM
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Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 8:56 pm

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2022 (Grand Prix Cars)

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CAEdevice wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:39 pm
Hi, do you think we can have an agreement about using 2022 compliant wings for the next race?

I would prefer to stay 2022 compliant, but considering that at least a top team is using 2021 wings and "the going is getting though" I am considering to do same.
Sorry that you may have to change, but my opinion is that myself and others have made wings compliant with the MVRC rules and have spent a lot of time designing them. This woud be a major rule change that in my opinion is best left till next year.
MRVC: Tolo Racing

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LegendaryM
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Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 8:56 pm

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2022 (Grand Prix Cars)

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G-raph wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:03 pm
Great video once again!

Congratulation to LegendaryM. I'm pleased that I picked up the correct winner once again. I'm getting good at this!

Regarding the race results, I'm not going to lie, I'm quite disappointed. Yes I made a good step (that would have been enough to win Race 1) but I was expecting a larger gain, and I thought I had found more than enough margin on cooling. I guess that's the joy of developing with a very unrefined CFD model.

You guys also made a big step between races, shoutout to Matteo in particular, I didn't see it coming. It shows the quality of the competition really, which is great to see.
Your car has a huge amount of front load. Looking at how Cl changes with CoP over the runs I've done, I think if you balanced your car to 1.92m it would be very competitive.
MRVC: Tolo Racing

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variante
126
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:36 am
Location: Monza

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2022 (Grand Prix Cars)

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LegendaryM wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:21 am
CAEdevice wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:39 pm
Hi, do you think we can have an agreement about using 2022 compliant wings for the next race?

I would prefer to stay 2022 compliant, but considering that at least a top team is using 2021 wings and "the going is getting though" I am considering to do same.
Sorry that you may have to change, but my opinion is that myself and others have made wings compliant with the MVRC rules and have spent a lot of time designing them. This woud be a major rule change that in my opinion is best left till next year.
I agree. I also went for the stricter F1 rules, but it was a self-imposed choice. It wouldn't be fair to force everyone else to change design in the middle of the season.

LVDH wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:35 am
Ah, and please let me know what CFD image you are interested from this race. For now, we have to stick to one from the report. As soon as I have finished the rake feature for you guys, I am open to detailed nicely rendered images.
I'd like to see images with some more "bite". Like these:
Image
Image

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CAEdevice
43
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:33 pm
Location: Erba, Italy

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2022 (Grand Prix Cars)

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Ok no problem, I asked for an agreement in order to not force anyone.

About the CFD images: I would prefer to not show nor see pressure or velocity maps of other cars.

On the contrary, I think we should have the possibility to see more images, floor included.

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Ft5fTL
17
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:27 am
Location: Izmir

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2022 (Grand Prix Cars)

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Any news about scrutineerring?
Mantium Challenge - Pure Power Racing

G-raph
G-raph
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Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:50 pm

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2022 (Grand Prix Cars)

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LegendaryM wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:21 am
CAEdevice wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:39 pm
Hi, do you think we can have an agreement about using 2022 compliant wings for the next race?

I would prefer to stay 2022 compliant, but considering that at least a top team is using 2021 wings and "the going is getting though" I am considering to do same.
Sorry that you may have to change, but my opinion is that myself and others have made wings compliant with the MVRC rules and have spent a lot of time designing them. This woud be a major rule change that in my opinion is best left till next year.
100% agree with that.
I'll propose something for next year in the other thread when I have some time, but for this year we should forget about it.

And for the record, I'll re-iterate it : only PurePower and JJR have a front wing endplate that I would consider to be close to "2022 compliant".
Disconnecting the flap elements from the endplate to expose shedding edges like CAEdevice and Variante is something all F1 teams would love to do and is very much against the intent of the 2022 F1 rules. So while I agree these design "look" more 2022 than the race winner, I don't think they are in reality.

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spacehead3
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Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:13 pm
Location: Detroit

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2022 (Grand Prix Cars)

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G-raph wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:12 pm
LegendaryM wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:21 am
CAEdevice wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:39 pm
Hi, do you think we can have an agreement about using 2022 compliant wings for the next race?

I would prefer to stay 2022 compliant, but considering that at least a top team is using 2021 wings and "the going is getting though" I am considering to do same.
Sorry that you may have to change, but my opinion is that myself and others have made wings compliant with the MVRC rules and have spent a lot of time designing them. This woud be a major rule change that in my opinion is best left till next year.
100% agree with that.
I'll propose something for next year in the other thread when I have some time, but for this year we should forget about it.

And for the record, I'll re-iterate it : only PurePower and JJR have a front wing endplate that I would consider to be close to "2022 compliant".
Disconnecting the flap elements from the endplate to expose shedding edges like CAEdevice and Variante is something all F1 teams would love to do and is very much against the intent of the 2022 F1 rules. So while I agree these design "look" more 2022 than the race winner, I don't think they are in reality.
Agree. IMO the real issue would be making "2022-alike" rules that are easy for us to enforce. The real F1 regulations are quite complicated this year, and as Aston has show they can still be sidestepped to a degree. On my wish list of MVRC rule changes I would put this pretty low.
Max Taylor

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CAEdevice
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Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:33 pm
Location: Erba, Italy

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2022 (Grand Prix Cars)

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I mentioned an agreement because I think that images of cars with 2022 wings are more suitable to be used to promote the teams/designers, MFlow and MVRc, but, as I said, from a technical perspective, no problem at all, thanks for your opinion.

I think that CAEdevice, Variante and Purepower could gain a bit of performance and that is good news for me.

I am curious about the efficiency of 2021 rear wings. My rear wing for Monza has a Cl/Cd ratio around 3.3, including pilons and beam-wing (that doesn't generate much downforce by itself in my design, it has rather a protective role of the flow above the diffuser, separating the energized flow from the flow coming from cooling outlets).

About front wings: my wing is inspired by the one used by Mercedes at the beginning of this season. I am not sure it is still legal in F1, you might be right, and it will not be legal next year. Anyway, the surface that must be hidden when viewed from Y direction is completely obscured. In F1 cars there are many structural discontinuities (not connected profiles that generate displacements under load conditions), much more structurally "interesting" than on my car :).

Anyway, next race is approaching, so let's think about it: I am not sure if we are in time to introduce the rake option...

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variante
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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:36 am
Location: Monza

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2022 (Grand Prix Cars)

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G-raph wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:12 pm
Disconnecting the flap elements from the endplate to expose shedding edges like CAEdevice and Variante is something all F1 teams would love to do and is very much against the intent of the 2022 F1 rules. So while I agree these design "look" more 2022 than the race winner, I don't think they are in reality.
My front wing is almost legal by 2022 F1 rules. I simply didn't make the effort to design the little connections between flaps and endplate, which would have been eaten away by the mesh anyway.
Image

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CAEdevice
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Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:33 pm
Location: Erba, Italy

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2022 (Grand Prix Cars)

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Hi, I have doubts about rule 13.1 (mirrors).

This section (in red) in X direction can be considered convex? The convexity should be in X, Y,Z (as written in the rulebook) or only Y and Z as it looks more reasonable?

Image

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yinlad
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Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:10 pm

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2022 (Grand Prix Cars)

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CAEdevice wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:57 am
Hi, I have doubts about rule 13.1 (mirrors).

This section (in red) in X direction can be considered convex? The convexity should be in X, Y,Z (as written in the rulebook) or only Y and Z as it looks more reasonable?

https://www.caedevice.net/SERVER/MVRC/2 ... e_13.1.jpg
I've been reading 'only one' as 'up to one' convex section in X, Y and Z directions. We'll see with scrutineering if my mirror stays are a problem or not I suppose

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LVDH
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Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:23 pm

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2022 (Grand Prix Cars)

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Ok, so the results which include the scrutineering results are updated:
https://mantiumchallenge.com/results-mvrc-italy-2022/


Regarding the "Run Case" button in MFlow:
For me it works, so I can not replicate it. Are you sure it is not running on your system?
If yes, please head over to hear with more details:
https://mantiumflow.com/mantiumflow-cfd ... e-support/


About the question regarding the rear wings:
The current rules in F1 detail in many places requirements about radii. Now I could simply copy the text, no problem, however, I do have the issue of being able to (automatically) measure these radii. For this reason some of the boxes might seem odd to you, as I could have easy constructed them, just like the real deal. I did not, because it could have been a loop hole to add wing like surfaces in certain areas. I really hope I did not give anyone ideas by revealing this. Now, I do not want to see wings with real endplates in our championship. The only way to avoid them, as far as I can tell, are rules about radii. So in case nobody has an idea for good rules about this, maybe somebody wold know how to hack together a few lines of Python code, that preferably would be able to run in VTK, Paraview of Blender to check the radius rules, we might need?

G-raph
G-raph
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Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:50 pm

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2022 (Grand Prix Cars)

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variante wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:47 pm
My front wing is almost legal by 2022 F1 rules. I simply didn't make the effort to design the little connections between flaps and endplate, which would have been eaten away by the mesh anyway.
Let's agree to disagree then. I don't want to come across as I have any problem with your design (inspired by Matteo's). I actually find it quite clever and elegant, and would like to evaluate it myself if I can find the time.

But it just proves my point... declaring a front wing (or by extension, a rear wing) endplate "2022 compliant" or not is very subjective. I think the rules should be clear and simple (as they currently are), and shouldn't be about who can convince André that their design is legal.
CAEdevice wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:57 am
Hi, I have doubts about rule 13.1 (mirrors).

This section (in red) in X direction can be considered convex? The convexity should be in X, Y,Z (as written in the rulebook) or only Y and Z as it looks more reasonable?
To me this rule is very clear, and your section is clearly concave in an X plane (on the underside). So not legal.

Having said that, it is quite strange that the bodywork rules are so open but the mirror mount is so restricted. Maybe something to change for next year.
LVDH wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:35 pm
About the question regarding the rear wings:
The current rules in F1 detail in many places requirements about radii. Now I could simply copy the text, no problem, however, I do have the issue of being able to (automatically) measure these radii. For this reason some of the boxes might seem odd to you, as I could have easy constructed them, just like the real deal. I did not, because it could have been a loop hole to add wing like surfaces in certain areas. I really hope I did not give anyone ideas by revealing this. Now, I do not want to see wings with real endplates in our championship. The only way to avoid them, as far as I can tell, are rules about radii. So in case nobody has an idea for good rules about this, maybe somebody wold know how to hack together a few lines of Python code, that preferably would be able to run in VTK, Paraview of Blender to check the radius rules, we might need?
I'm not fundamentally against introducing a radius rule, but I'll repeat myself. F1 rules are much more complicated than a minimum radius on the front and rear wing endplates. There are exception for every leading edge, trailing edge and junction point, otherwise it would simply be impossible to make any wing design legal. If you can include that in your automatic checker, then great, but it sounds quite tricky to me.

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yinlad
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Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:10 pm

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2022 (Grand Prix Cars)

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G-raph wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:02 pm

To me this rule is very clear, and your section is clearly concave in an X plane (on the underside). So not legal.
The rule mentions nothing about concavity in any direction, I think a lot of people are misreading the rule. It states you are allowed only one convex section in any axis. The intent I assume is to prevent a mass of wings or fins in the area like Merc have done this year.

Take a look at my (Panthera) mirror stays that were deemed legal for R02.

Though furthermore by the rules the only thing that affected by this rule is the part that touches the mirror. Anything else in that box is free game if it's independent of the bit connecting the mirror to the car

G-raph
G-raph
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Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:50 pm

Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2022 (Grand Prix Cars)

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I doubt this was the intent of the rule but given how this has been worded, I have to admit that you are right.

In any case, it needs simplifying for next year.