2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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radosav
radosav
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Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

Post

Michelangelo wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:06 am
There are a lot of Alonso haters out there as well, as much as Hamilton ones. Strange those two drivers managed to create two opposite fan bases.
Yep, their reaction to Alonso's move on Bottas was like he killed someone.
But they had to compensate for their shock after saturday qualy, that kind of stuff must have been pretty dreadful for that kind of people.

Watto
Watto
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Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2022 2:12 pm

Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

Post

dialtone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:00 am
Here's some data:

gap graph
https://i.imgur.com/Wtt6uKO.png

I don't see the case for Verstappen not pushing, he was gapping his team mate in Baku, no chance he's ok with a 4s gap to Sainz 2nd.
Sainz is clearly faster any time they are on the same tyre.
Ies:
https://i.imgur.com/PhG4Y9U.png

In this graph you can see Sainz had even better tyre deg in his stints as the gap in lap time is smaller at start than at the end.

Last 10+ laps of the race for the top 3:
https://i.imgur.com/fV15YRY.jpeg

Sainz is on average 15kph faster than Verstappen on main straight, 20kph+ in at least 2 laps.
Ham lifting and coasting at the hairpin, 0.1s cost

Sainz had to brake earlier in each corners due to being so close to Max and losing stopping power, except in the hairpin where Sainz tries to take a different line and not lose braking power, however it compromises his minimum speed even further.

https://i.imgur.com/Lcfz7ct.jpeg

This was last lap ALO v BOT. Alonso braking super late in each corner to prevent lounges, but he compromises the hairpin and his changes of direction in the straight force Bottas to brake. Clear as day penalty.
I agree Sainz had the better race pace Just that he wasn't making a alot of ground before Max's 2nd stop in clean air. With a tow and DRS he was all over him for 15 laps the gap between the two wasn't all that great Sainz wasn't constantly pulling 0.5-1.0s a lap on Max to close the gap quicky. was a tenth here a tenth there etc, Maxs 2nd stop was without a SC or VSC vs Sainz SC pit, if there wasn't that (and test I get thats racing sometimes you win sometimes you lose with stuff ike that. Had that SC not come for Sainz, MV would have had a what 10s gap with 20 laps to go. Or 20 laps to make up a 7s gap if Sainz one stopped.he didn't have a huge advantage.

dialtone
dialtone
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:31 am

Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

Post

Watto wrote:
dialtone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:00 am
Here's some data:

gap graph
https://i.imgur.com/Wtt6uKO.png

I don't see the case for Verstappen not pushing, he was gapping his team mate in Baku, no chance he's ok with a 4s gap to Sainz 2nd.
Sainz is clearly faster any time they are on the same tyre.
Ies:
https://i.imgur.com/PhG4Y9U.png

In this graph you can see Sainz had even better tyre deg in his stints as the gap in lap time is smaller at start than at the end.

Last 10+ laps of the race for the top 3:
https://i.imgur.com/fV15YRY.jpeg

Sainz is on average 15kph faster than Verstappen on main straight, 20kph+ in at least 2 laps.
Ham lifting and coasting at the hairpin, 0.1s cost

Sainz had to brake earlier in each corners due to being so close to Max and losing stopping power, except in the hairpin where Sainz tries to take a different line and not lose braking power, however it compromises his minimum speed even further.

https://i.imgur.com/Lcfz7ct.jpeg

This was last lap ALO v BOT. Alonso braking super late in each corner to prevent lounges, but he compromises the hairpin and his changes of direction in the straight force Bottas to brake. Clear as day penalty.
I agree Sainz had the better race pace Just that he wasn't making a alot of ground before Max's 2nd stop in clean air. With a tow and DRS he was all over him for 15 laps the gap between the two wasn't all that great Sainz wasn't constantly pulling 0.5-1.0s a lap on Max to close the gap quicky. was a tenth here a tenth there etc, Maxs 2nd stop was without a SC or VSC vs Sainz SC pit, if there wasn't that (and test I get thats racing sometimes you win sometimes you lose with stuff ike that. Had that SC not come for Sainz, MV would have had a what 10s gap with 20 laps to go. Or 20 laps to make up a 7s gap if Sainz one stopped.he didn't have a huge advantage.
Fair enough but Sainz wasn't stopping 2 times. RBR was forced to stop at VSC due to tire deg, but one race strategy was 22 laps on mediums and finish on hards which is what Sainz was going to do.

SC made Sai stop to avoid another Abu Dhabi-like win for Max, without the SC it's debatable who would have won, probably Sainz given track position and tyre deg advantage but Ver had much younger tyres.

Anyway, was a good race.

Watto
Watto
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Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2022 2:12 pm

Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

Post

dialtone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:52 am
Watto wrote:
dialtone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:00 am
Here's some data:

gap graph
https://i.imgur.com/Wtt6uKO.png

I don't see the case for Verstappen not pushing, he was gapping his team mate in Baku, no chance he's ok with a 4s gap to Sainz 2nd.
Sainz is clearly faster any time they are on the same tyre.
Ies:
https://i.imgur.com/PhG4Y9U.png

In this graph you can see Sainz had even better tyre deg in his stints as the gap in lap time is smaller at start than at the end.

Last 10+ laps of the race for the top 3:
https://i.imgur.com/fV15YRY.jpeg

Sainz is on average 15kph faster than Verstappen on main straight, 20kph+ in at least 2 laps.
Ham lifting and coasting at the hairpin, 0.1s cost

Sainz had to brake earlier in each corners due to being so close to Max and losing stopping power, except in the hairpin where Sainz tries to take a different line and not lose braking power, however it compromises his minimum speed even further.

https://i.imgur.com/Lcfz7ct.jpeg

This was last lap ALO v BOT. Alonso braking super late in each corner to prevent lounges, but he compromises the hairpin and his changes of direction in the straight force Bottas to brake. Clear as day penalty.
I agree Sainz had the better race pace Just that he wasn't making a alot of ground before Max's 2nd stop in clean air. With a tow and DRS he was all over him for 15 laps the gap between the two wasn't all that great Sainz wasn't constantly pulling 0.5-1.0s a lap on Max to close the gap quicky. was a tenth here a tenth there etc, Maxs 2nd stop was without a SC or VSC vs Sainz SC pit, if there wasn't that (and test I get thats racing sometimes you win sometimes you lose with stuff ike that. Had that SC not come for Sainz, MV would have had a what 10s gap with 20 laps to go. Or 20 laps to make up a 7s gap if Sainz one stopped.he didn't have a huge advantage.
Fair enough but Sainz wasn't stopping 2 times. RBR was forced to stop at VSC due to tire deg, but one race strategy was 22 laps on mediums and finish on hards which is what Sainz was going to do.

SC made Sai stop to avoid another Abu Dhabi-like win for Max, without the SC it's debatable who would have won, probably Sainz given track position and tyre deg advantage but Ver had much younger tyres.

Anyway, was a good race.

I think Max wouldn't won but by a pretty small margin. I perhaps don't feel like Sainz tried the same move over and over again for 15 laps Max knew what was coming and had it under enough control. I think it would have taken (if he was able to) Max quite a few laps to overtake Sainz had Ferarri one stopped. I think probaby a difference between the two is I think Max would have changed his plan to overtake after realizing wasn;t working, iirc the sky commentators suggested Sainz not take so much kerb to get better drive out of the exit I don't think he ever did.

But was a very good race for sure.

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Sieper
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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When you are in front, if anything happens (and in this race we had two (V)SC) it is more likely to cost you. At the first VSC they took the initiative, unlike Baku that allowed Ferrari to take the cheap stop there. But that meant it was going to be a two stopper. Especially the SC was quite costly for Max. Sitting duck is what I expected. 3 DRS zones, older tires. But it worked out for Max and was exciting. Real SC usually are.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

peaty
peaty
11
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:56 pm

Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

Post

dialtone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:00 am
Here's some data:

gap graph
https://i.imgur.com/Wtt6uKO.png

I don't see the case for Verstappen not pushing, he was gapping his team mate in Baku, no chance he's ok with a 4s gap to Sainz 2nd.
Sainz is clearly faster any time they are on the same tyre.

here's a cleaner look on it with lap times:
https://i.imgur.com/PhG4Y9U.png

In this graph you can see Sainz had even better tyre deg in his stints as the gap in lap time is smaller at start than at the end.

Last 10+ laps of the race for the top 3:
https://i.imgur.com/fV15YRY.jpeg

Sainz is on average 15kph faster than Verstappen on main straight, 20kph+ in at least 2 laps.
Ham lifting and coasting at the hairpin, 0.1s cost

Sainz had to brake earlier in each corners due to being so close to Max and losing stopping power, except in the hairpin where Sainz tries to take a different line and not lose braking power, however it compromises his minimum speed even further.

https://i.imgur.com/Lcfz7ct.jpeg

This was last lap ALO v BOT. Alonso braking super late in each corner to prevent lounges, but he compromises the hairpin and his changes of direction in the straight force Bottas to brake. Clear as day penalty.

Interesting! where did you get that data from?

Cheers!

dialtone
dialtone
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:31 am

Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

Post

peaty wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:23 pm



Interesting! where did you get that data from?

Cheers!
FastF1

peaty
peaty
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Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:56 pm

Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

Post

dialtone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:25 pm
peaty wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:23 pm



Interesting! where did you get that data from?

Cheers!
FastF1

thanks! I didn't know throttle, brake, gear, rpm or drs was available! Is steering also available? That would be very interesting!

dialtone
dialtone
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:31 am

Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

Post

peaty wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:31 pm
dialtone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:25 pm
peaty wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:23 pm



Interesting! where did you get that data from?

Cheers!
FastF1

thanks! I didn't know throttle, brake, gear, rpm or drs was available! Is steering also available? That would be very interesting!
No, only the data passed to the f1 app for live timing the race.

Watto
Watto
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Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2022 2:12 pm

Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

Post

Sieper wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:15 am
When you are in front, if anything happens (and in this race we had two (V)SC) it is more likely to cost you. At the first VSC they took the initiative, unlike Baku that allowed Ferrari to take the cheap stop there. But that meant it was going to be a two stopper. Especially the SC was quite costly for Max. Sitting duck is what I expected. 3 DRS zones, older tires. But it worked out for Max and was exciting. Real SC usually are.

I think strategy wise Sainz was well ahead this week Max's first stop was too early though I get why RB made the call Sainz got his in where they would have liked to from the beginning . The 2nd round was even more in favor of Sainz it probably couldn't have gone any better for Ferrari. As you said tends to happen to the leader in most races. I do think Sainz had the slightly better race pace, but perhaps telling too he had 15 laps to overtake Max after the SC 12/13~ laps within the DRS zone and was unable to make the overtake

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Andres125sx
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Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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Michelangelo wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:06 am
There are a lot of Alonso haters out there as well, as much as Hamilton ones. Strange those two drivers managed to create two opposite fan bases.
As a nerd who support both Alonso and Hamilton :-s I´d say they never did anything to provoke it. Actually both of them have always been extremely kind with each other, even praising the other. Maybe in 2007, but since 2008, and even in 2008, they have always been very kind with each other

But I can´t say the same about spanish and english media, as any other btw. They need to create fanboys, and frequently provoke hate against the rivals of their favourites and hide any mistake from him. Fanboys spend a lot more money than sensible people so they add fuel at any opportunity, highlighting any not so kind quote, ignoring the kind ones, with showmans as presenters who can´t even try to be objective, etc.

In this particular case, in 2007 spanish media, specially Lobato, has been simply vomitive in this aspect (remember this comes from an spanish Alonso fan, imagine what thinnk about him people who are not #-o ). About english media, I´ve seen numerous examples of them ignoring facts about FIA and McLaren bias towards Lewis in 2007, trying to hide it so Alonso looked like a cryboy who can´t accept equal treatment.

Both of them (spanish and english media) added as much fuel as possible to create this fanboyism towards their favourite. That increases views and clicks. But they, both Alonso and Hamilton, has always been way more respectful and objective than most media from their countries
Last edited by Andres125sx on Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Big Tea
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:14 pm
Michelangelo wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:06 am
There are a lot of Alonso haters out there as well, as much as Hamilton ones. Strange those two drivers managed to create two opposite fan bases.
As a nerd who support both Alonso and Hamilton :-s I´d say they never did anything to provoke it. Actually both of them have always been extremely kind with each other, even praising the other. Maybe in 2007, but since 2008, and even in 2008, they have always been very kind with each other

But I can´t say the same about spanish and english media, as any other btw. They need to create fanboys, and frequently provoke hate against the rivals of their favourites and hide any mistake from him. Fanboys spend a lot more money than sensible people so they add fuel at any opportunity, highlighting any not so kind quote, ignoring the kind ones, with showmans as presenters who can´t even try to be objective, etc.

In this particular case, in 2007 spanish media, specially Lobato, has been simply vomitive in this aspect (remember this comes from an spanish Alonso fan, imagine what thinnk about him people who are not #-o ). About english media, I´ve seen numerous examples of them ignoring facts about FIA and McLaren bias towards Lewis in 2007, trying to hide it so Alonso looked like a cryboy who can´t accept equal treatment.

Both of them (spanish and english media) added as much fuel as possible to create this fanboyism towards their favourite. That increases views and clicks. But they, both Alonso and Hamilton, has always been way more respectful and objective than most media from their countries
It is called 'jingoism' and is the prime source of headlines in the tabloids, and the serious papers are close behind.
I hate it. Any sport or contest of any kind become 'us v them' and it is black or white, no grey area and usually very little truh.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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ispano6
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Location: my playseat

Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

Post

dialtone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:52 am
Watto wrote:
dialtone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:00 am
Here's some data:

gap graph
https://i.imgur.com/Wtt6uKO.png

I don't see the case for Verstappen not pushing, he was gapping his team mate in Baku, no chance he's ok with a 4s gap to Sainz 2nd.
Sainz is clearly faster any time they are on the same tyre.
Ies:
https://i.imgur.com/PhG4Y9U.png

In this graph you can see Sainz had even better tyre deg in his stints as the gap in lap time is smaller at start than at the end.

Last 10+ laps of the race for the top 3:
https://i.imgur.com/fV15YRY.jpeg

Sainz is on average 15kph faster than Verstappen on main straight, 20kph+ in at least 2 laps.
Ham lifting and coasting at the hairpin, 0.1s cost

Sainz had to brake earlier in each corners due to being so close to Max and losing stopping power, except in the hairpin where Sainz tries to take a different line and not lose braking power, however it compromises his minimum speed even further.

https://i.imgur.com/Lcfz7ct.jpeg

This was last lap ALO v BOT. Alonso braking super late in each corner to prevent lounges, but he compromises the hairpin and his changes of direction in the straight force Bottas to brake. Clear as day penalty.
I agree Sainz had the better race pace Just that he wasn't making a alot of ground before Max's 2nd stop in clean air. With a tow and DRS he was all over him for 15 laps the gap between the two wasn't all that great Sainz wasn't constantly pulling 0.5-1.0s a lap on Max to close the gap quicky. was a tenth here a tenth there etc, Maxs 2nd stop was without a SC or VSC vs Sainz SC pit, if there wasn't that (and test I get thats racing sometimes you win sometimes you lose with stuff ike that. Had that SC not come for Sainz, MV would have had a what 10s gap with 20 laps to go. Or 20 laps to make up a 7s gap if Sainz one stopped.he didn't have a huge advantage.
Fair enough but Sainz wasn't stopping 2 times. RBR was forced to stop at VSC due to tire deg, but one race strategy was 22 laps on mediums and finish on hards which is what Sainz was going to do.

SC made Sai stop to avoid another Abu Dhabi-like win for Max, without the SC it's debatable who would have won, probably Sainz given track position and tyre deg advantage but Ver had much younger tyres.

Anyway, was a good race.
I think if Sainz did get ahead it would have been possible for Max to retake the lead using DRS, possibly on the very last lap. Sainz had 3 DRS zones per lap for the last several laps to close the gap and get within 0.3s~0.4s of Max. If Max were behind and could get within the same margin at the hairpin, the RB18 seemed to have the better exit out of the hairpin and could get the power down better for the straight. It might have been an even more thrilling end!

dialtone
dialtone
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:31 am

Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

Post

ispano6 wrote:
dialtone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:52 am
Watto wrote: I agree Sainz had the better race pace Just that he wasn't making a alot of ground before Max's 2nd stop in clean air. With a tow and DRS he was all over him for 15 laps the gap between the two wasn't all that great Sainz wasn't constantly pulling 0.5-1.0s a lap on Max to close the gap quicky. was a tenth here a tenth there etc, Maxs 2nd stop was without a SC or VSC vs Sainz SC pit, if there wasn't that (and test I get thats racing sometimes you win sometimes you lose with stuff ike that. Had that SC not come for Sainz, MV would have had a what 10s gap with 20 laps to go. Or 20 laps to make up a 7s gap if Sainz one stopped.he didn't have a huge advantage.
Fair enough but Sainz wasn't stopping 2 times. RBR was forced to stop at VSC due to tire deg, but one race strategy was 22 laps on mediums and finish on hards which is what Sainz was going to do.

SC made Sai stop to avoid another Abu Dhabi-like win for Max, without the SC it's debatable who would have won, probably Sainz given track position and tyre deg advantage but Ver had much younger tyres.

Anyway, was a good race.
I think if Sainz did get ahead it would have been possible for Max to retake the lead using DRS, possibly on the very last lap. Sainz had 3 DRS zones per lap for the last several laps to close the gap and get within 0.3s~0.4s of Max. If Max were behind and could get within the same margin at the hairpin, the RB18 seemed to have the better exit out of the hairpin and could get the power down better for the straight. It might have been an even more thrilling end!
Nope. Sainz and Verstappen had the same top speed in clean air.

Red Bull is not faster than Ferrari, this myth has to end sooner or later.

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ispano6
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Location: my playseat

Re: 2022 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, June 17 - 19

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dialtone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:48 pm
ispano6 wrote:
dialtone wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:52 am

Fair enough but Sainz wasn't stopping 2 times. RBR was forced to stop at VSC due to tire deg, but one race strategy was 22 laps on mediums and finish on hards which is what Sainz was going to do.

SC made Sai stop to avoid another Abu Dhabi-like win for Max, without the SC it's debatable who would have won, probably Sainz given track position and tyre deg advantage but Ver had much younger tyres.

Anyway, was a good race.
I think if Sainz did get ahead it would have been possible for Max to retake the lead using DRS, possibly on the very last lap. Sainz had 3 DRS zones per lap for the last several laps to close the gap and get within 0.3s~0.4s of Max. If Max were behind and could get within the same margin at the hairpin, the RB18 seemed to have the better exit out of the hairpin and could get the power down better for the straight. It might have been an even more thrilling end!
Nope. Sainz and Verstappen had the same top speed in clean air.

Red Bull is not faster than Ferrari, this myth has to end sooner or later.
Same top speed at the same location? Do you have data on the acceleration curve and the relative top speed achieved by both cars with DRS? It looked like Max had better traction coming out of the hairpin than Sainz, so it'd be interesting but probably impossible to ever know what the outcome would have been if Max had DRS behind Sainz.