Safety car ruins another great race

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Winterapfel
Winterapfel
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Joined: 21 Sep 2015, 12:16

Re: Safety car ruins another great race

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The real problem, to me is why this safety car was needed. There was no need for this car to end up where is did.

We've seen multiple cases where drivers tried to nurture failing cars to the pits instead of directly stopping at a safe location. Creating an avoidable hazardous situation should be penalized!

DChemTech
DChemTech
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Joined: 25 Mar 2019, 11:31
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Re: Safety car ruins another great race

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Winterapfel wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 13:01
The real problem, to me is why this safety car was needed. There was no need for this car to end up where is did.

We've seen multiple cases where drivers tried to nurture failing cars to the pits instead of directly stopping at a safe location. Creating an avoidable hazardous situation should be penalized!
Perhaps he could have stopped elsewhere; on the other hand, if you do not yet know what is the problem, I do suppose you try to move on and maybe regain power - you only stop once it's clear there is no way to stay in the game. And that may mean you end up in a less favorable spot. Can you blame a driver for that? I don't think so, it seems logical to me that you try to maximize your own chances, rather than stopping early because it facilitates the race for the competition.

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chrisc90
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Joined: 23 Feb 2022, 21:22

Re: Safety car ruins another great race

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Don’t see a problem with ocon’s location to stop or the safety car. There would have needed Marshalls on the track to remove the vehicle, or even lifted so fully right to neutralise the race with the safety car.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Safety car ruins another great race

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chrisc90 wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 13:13
Don’t see a problem with ocon’s location to stop or the safety car. There would have needed Marshalls on the track to remove the vehicle, or even lifted so fully right to neutralise the race with the safety car.
Agreed, once you have marshals on the track, a safety car is required in order to ensure the drivers go slowly near the marshals. I still think a slow zone with a mandatory pit lane speed limiter applied can't be used to give the marshals the same level of safety as the safety car. It also reduces the effect on the drivers that have done good work only to see it taken away by the artificial bunching up behind the safety car. Of course, if one were cynical, one might suggest the bunching up is one of the things that TPTB are looking for - it gives artificially-sourced excitement as we saw yesterday.
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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Safety car ruins another great race

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Winterapfel wrote:
04 Jul 2022, 13:01
The real problem, to me is why this safety car was needed. There was no need for this car to end up where is did.

We've seen multiple cases where drivers tried to nurture failing cars to the pits instead of directly stopping at a safe location. Creating an avoidable hazardous situation should be penalized!
I see some sense in this. Maybe they should do a study into having more 'safe bays' for a failing car to pull into if they are able to allow recovery from off the track. As long as the stopped car is not in a direct line for an incident it would not matter if it was left there until race end, and no need for workers to expose themselves to the traffic.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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RZS10
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Joined: 07 Dec 2013, 01:23

Re: Safety car ruins another great race

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Bit late to the party because i missed this thread existed, i posted three separate posts arguing that i believe the full SC wasn't even necessary and it kinda just got buried in the race thread ... this is a shortened compilation of those posts:

The decision to call the SC after yellows were shown only took them 10 odd seconds which was surprisingly quick, they seemingly did not even consider the VSC.
I always thought the whole idea of the VSC was to allow the marshalls to remove a car safely when no recovery vehicle is required, this was the case here, as the car being pushed was shown on the feed.

The mere fact that the race direction did not wait until the cars were all lined up behind the SC implies that they thought it was safe enough to do so under conditions which were no different to a VSC, as, to my knowledge, the SC and VSC delta times on the dash are the same [...]

I did check if anything contradicted the basic assumption my argument hinges on and i could not find anything [...] the regs just mention the time set by the ECU and i couldn't find anything beyond that, additionally i did have a glance at the lap times as i don't like talking out my arse.

[The VSC lap times are roughly] 30%-40% [above normal race times] which was probably something that was estimated based on previous races (not an official number).

I don't think there's any driver who finished a full lap with the delta times without having caught the SC yet and without doing a stop, one of those who got close to doing that is Stroll as he was the furthest car from the SC when it picked up LEC and also hadn't caught the SC train yet after pitting.

His outlap was a 2:03 (lap41) incl. the stop (~30s total) - which puts it perfectly at 30% or even below from a baseline of 95s accounting for going slower in the pits but then not being bound by the delta [on pit entry and exit]
Various other drivers did times around 2:03 in that period on laps 40 and 41 [...] they were doing lap times which were roughly equal to VSC times.

[...] the positioning of the car on/off track does not seem to be a binary factor:

In Jeddah there was a car on track and it was recovered under VSC.
In Miami they called the VSC within 10s for Norris' car which was on three wheels on a fast part of the track, they then probably realized they would not be able to push it and called the full SC 1:37min later.
In Baku Magnussen stopped at the end of a fast section on track and the car was recovered under VSC.
Even in Monaco with a car split in half they went through the VSC and then to a full SC whereas they instantly went to SC here.

[...] so with that in mind i looked at a full race replay and some footage from the live timing app.

Ocon stopped his car here
Image
And was brought here
Image
Image

Those were the positions when he stopped the car
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When the SC was called
Image
So Perez and Tsunoda were just about to get past the scene and technically did so under VSC conditions, the same was true for Norris, Alonso, Vettel, Verstappen, Schumacher, Magnussen, Stroll and Latifi.

Clearer image with those cars marked
Image

Leclerc was the first to be behind the SC, the others then pitted.

Leclerc behind the SC coming up to Copse, hard to tell whether Sainz, Hamilton and Ricciardo were already stacked up and just leaving large gaps or if they were still closing on the SC.
Image
This is how it looks like with them stacked behind the SC, so it's probably the latter.
Image
I would argue that it's just the two Ferraris which actually passed Ocon's car behind the SC.
Image
HAM, RIC, PER, TSU, NOR, ALO then definitely went past under VSC conditions depending on where they were when the car was already gone potentially also VER, MSC, MAG, LAT and STR.
The second screenshot in this post was roughly the moment where Leclerc then finished lap 40, so the next time they went past Copse the car was already gone.

The recovery took three minutes at most from what i could see in the footage.

So in summary: The call for a full SC was [potentially] unnecessary as all cars apart from two went past the marshalls who were pushing the car under conditions identical to a VSC - i really do not understand why they did not call a VSC first to have the marshalls check whether they could engage neutral or whether they'd have to call a full SC to get out a recovery vehicle. [...] - in retrospect there would have been no practical difference between a VSC and SC in this case - ergo they could just as well have called a VSC (internal guidelines allowing).

Sevach
Sevach
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Safety car ruins another great race

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I'm from an era where these types of marginal calls where never made, SC only if it's truly impossible to continue, it makes me sad seeing those calls at times and thinking RDs are happy to make them for the show.

I think a couple of changes are in order:
1-Bring your car trundling around back to the pits or risk a grid penalty in the next race, proof that you didn't willingly shutdown would be required.
2-Easy on the trigger mr director, consider the least damaging options before going all in, from double yellows>VSC>Full SC

notsofast
notsofast
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Joined: 10 Oct 2012, 02:56

Re: Safety car ruins another great race

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My takeaway from RZS10's post is this: if Race Control decides that a safety car is necessary to protect the marshalls, then wouldn't it follow logically that the marshalls shouldn't be allowed on track until all cars are bunched up behind the safety car?

Jolle
Jolle
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Re: Safety car ruins another great race

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I think it’s a good general safety rule: marshalls on track: safety car, marshalls on the side of the track (like the gras or gravel trap): VSC.

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Safety car ruins another great race

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As tyre warmers are leaving, is it time to change to a standing start instead?
The tracking system knows the gap between each car, so a light could indicate 'next' for them to pull off in the same spacing as before the red.
There would be winners and losers, the same as behind the car, but track workers would be guaranteed a clear period so getting things right would be quicker too.
This could be from starting grid or pitlane, but I think the pit boxes should not be available without a penalty of some sort
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RZS10
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Joined: 07 Dec 2013, 01:23

Re: Safety car ruins another great race

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Jolle wrote:
10 Jul 2022, 12:21
I think it’s a good general safety rule: marshalls on track: safety car, marshalls on the side of the track (like the gras or gravel trap): VSC.
I agree, but that clearly wasn't the case in various other races this season and for the most part here.

I don't have access to the onboard channels but it would be easy to look at those laps to see when the recovery started and how many cars passed the marshalls under SC delta (=VSC) conditions and whether the car was even still there when the two (?) cars went past behind the SC.

michl420
michl420
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Joined: 18 Apr 2010, 17:08
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Re: Safety car ruins another great race

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I watch F1 for 25 years and a SC have under every rule have winners and loosers.The best thing is ovious a VSC. Even better would be nothing at all. It makes me angry every time a driver stops 10 meters besides a gap. This gaps should be that a car can be DRIVEN through it, 30 % of the SC in the last 4 years would not be.