What happens in 2021 stays in 2021

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Oleo
Oleo
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Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

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dans79 wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:02 pm
Bottas
https://www.racefans.net/2022/10/20/red ... ap-bottas/
“I feel like the rules are the rules and if you don’t follow them, there should be a penalty that really hurts,” he said.
“You don’t want anyone to have the appetite to maximise something for one year and risk it with the budget cap,” he said. “I personally hope that it’s going to be a strict and harsh penalty because that shouldn’t happen. The rules are the rules.
“There’s many rules in F1 and it should [not] be any different in terms of penalties. Let’s hope so that it’s a good penalty that really, really hurts them because I was in the fight last year for the constructors, yes we got that, but we missed the drivers’ title by a few points and a few millions can make a big, big difference.”
Hamilton
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/hamil ... /10387122/
“I do think the sport needs to do something about this,” said Hamilton.

“Otherwise, if it’s quite relaxed, if they’re relaxed with these rules, then all the teams will just go over.

“And spending millions more and then only having a slap on the wrist is obviously not going to be great for the sport. They might as well not have a cost cap for the future [in that case].”
One wonders why these folks werent demanding more harsh penalties when a 5 second penalty was given for a probably deliberate punting of a main competitor in the wall for a 32 point swing and a 5 place grid penalty was given for a very basic lack of control of the car destroying 2 competitor and several other cars, causing another massive 10+ point swing.

rifrafs2kees
rifrafs2kees
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Re: 2022 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Oct 28 - 30

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langedweil wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:11 am
rifrafs2kees wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:12 am
ispano6 wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:00 am


You could say Mercedes lost last year's finale with the same mistake as this race: Wrong tyre choice. Mercedes has shown that being conservative has gotten the better of them, or maybe it's a fault of being too sure of themselves. Whether it's the risk of track position or being on faster tires, Mercedes seems to just make the wrong call.
Categorically terrible example to make your point. Redbull would've done the contrary move, thereby earned track position. Moreover, how would merc have known that only a subset of unlapped cars would be let through, i.e. schoolboy mistake?
They were objectively cheated out of the championship. End of story.
No .. and this sits wrong in the UK mindset; at the moment the SC came out, no one could have known how soon the car could have been cleared. No one. You could guess and opt to stay out for track position (typical conservative MB thinking), but if it would clear faster you just simply made the wrong choice.
Thát is what happened .. Masi got killed for it, but it was their own choice of options.
Never understood why they gave it away, as even with those old tires Ver could only barely pass .. Ham would have held easily with equal tires.
So anyway, in that sense imho Ispano is right ...
What you describe is farfetched.
Let's assume Hamilton had pitted for fresh boots, and Verstappen stayed out to earn track position. Had Masi conducted the restart fairly, there would've been one of 3 possible outcomes:
1. Race resumes with one lap left, with one or more back markers between Hamilton and Verstappen, whose tires would not have been as bad as what Hamilton just discarded.
2. Race restarts after ALL back markers unlap, meaning race does not resume.
3. Race is red flagged and everybody takes on new or newish tires. Except, Verstappen would have track position by virtue of staying out during safety car period.

In summary, Masi screwed Merc, nothing new. The only mistake on Merc's part was keeping Bottas for so long. Russell should've been handed the seat immediately after showing up Bottas. Russell'd have made life more difficult for Verstappen and red bull pit board, the exact opposite of Bottas, who was nowhere on Sundays. Heck, he dropped like a rock again today. I like the guy but his race pace, racecraft, and ability to handle traffic is atrocious.
Last edited by rifrafs2kees on Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:17 am, edited 4 times in total.

f1jcw
f1jcw
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Re: 2022 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Oct 28 - 30

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rifrafs2kees wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:02 am
langedweil wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:11 am
rifrafs2kees wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:12 am

Categorically terrible example to make your point. Redbull would've done the contrary move, thereby earned track position. Moreover, how would merc have known that only a subset of unlapped cars would be let through, i.e. schoolboy mistake?
They were objectively cheated out of the championship. End of story.
No .. and this sits wrong in the UK mindset; at the moment the SC came out, no one could have known how soon the car could have been cleared. No one. You could guess and opt to stay out for track position (typical conservative MB thinking), but if it would clear faster you just simply made the wrong choice.
Thát is what happened .. Masi got killed for it, but it was their own choice of options.
Never understood why they gave it away, as even with those old tires Ver could only barely pass .. Ham would have held easily with equal tires.
So anyway, in that sense imho Ispano is right ...
What you describe is a farfetched.
Let's assume Hamilton had pitted for fresh boots, and Verstappen stayed out to earn track position. Had Masi conducted the restart fairly, the were 3 possible outcomes:
1. Race resumes with one lap left, with one or more back markers between Hamilton and Verstappen, who's tires would not have been as bad as what Hamilton just discarded.
2. Race restarts after ALL back markers unlap, meaning race does not resume.
3. Race is red flagged and everybody takes on new or newish tires. Except, Verstappen would have track position by virtue of staying out during safety car period.

In summary, Masi screwed Merc, nothing new. The only mistake on Merc's part was keeping Bottas for so long. Russell should've been handed the seat immediately after showing up Bottas. Russell'd have made life more difficult for Verstappen and red bull pit board, the exact opposite of Bottas, who was nowhere on Sundays. Heck, he dropped like a rock again today. I like the guy but his race pace, racecraft, and ability to handle traffic is atrocious.
It is amazing that a year later there is some people that are unable or unwilling those simple facts you posted

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langedweil
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Location: Caribbean

Re: 2022 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Oct 28 - 30

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f1jcw wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:44 am
rifrafs2kees wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:02 am
langedweil wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:11 am

No .. and this sits wrong in the UK mindset; at the moment the SC came out, no one could have known how soon the car could have been cleared. No one. You could guess and opt to stay out for track position (typical conservative MB thinking), but if it would clear faster you just simply made the wrong choice.
Thát is what happened .. Masi got killed for it, but it was their own choice of options.
Never understood why they gave it away, as even with those old tires Ver could only barely pass .. Ham would have held easily with equal tires.
So anyway, in that sense imho Ispano is right ...
What you describe is a farfetched.
Let's assume Hamilton had pitted for fresh boots, and Verstappen stayed out to earn track position. Had Masi conducted the restart fairly, the were 3 possible outcomes:
1. Race resumes with one lap left, with one or more back markers between Hamilton and Verstappen, who's tires would not have been as bad as what Hamilton just discarded.
2. Race restarts after ALL back markers unlap, meaning race does not resume.
3. Race is red flagged and everybody takes on new or newish tires. Except, Verstappen would have track position by virtue of staying out during safety car period.

In summary, Masi screwed Merc, nothing new. The only mistake on Merc's part was keeping Bottas for so long. Russell should've been handed the seat immediately after showing up Bottas. Russell'd have made life more difficult for Verstappen and red bull pit board, the exact opposite of Bottas, who was nowhere on Sundays. Heck, he dropped like a rock again today. I like the guy but his race pace, racecraft, and ability to handle traffic is atrocious.
It is amazing that a year later there is some people that are unable or unwilling those simple facts you posted
It really is, isn't it ?
But let's not get Kravitzly about it, and leave that can of worms where it belongs: 2021
HuggaWugga !

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ispano6
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my playseat

Re: 2022 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Oct 28 - 30

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f1jcw wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:44 am
It is amazing that a year later there is some people that are unable or unwilling those simple facts you posted
It's amazing that you guys keep bringing up last year Masi etc as if it has any bearing on this season at all. What's done is done and unfortunately for you guys nothing you or Merc says will change that. It seems some here are unwilling or unable to accept that today's race, according to most commentators, was Mercedes to lose and Wolff also admitted they got it wrong. Don't blame Max and Red Bull for that. Keep your * to yourself and hope for a better season next year. In fact, it probably would be better for Red Bull and Ferrari for Merc to end up 2nd in the constructors championship in 2022 so they get slightly less aero/cfd time.

fourmula1
fourmula1
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Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:22 pm

Re: 2022 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Oct 28 - 30

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MadMax wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:01 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:31 pm
Yeah, Russell should be dropped IMHO. It’s one of those where those comments will probably come back to haunt him. He knows what he’s doing in scenarios like that and I’m half inclined to say it’s a Mercedes way of driver coaching, with being ‘alongside’ and having rights to a corner.

Imagine what he would be saying if the shoe was on the other foot and he gets pushed out wide. Probably the only reason he didn’t complain was because it was his team mate who did it.
S'funny, but it seems more like a Red Bull way - "let them race, Michael!" :lol:
Watch the start of race into T1. That is the definition of side by side. If you make this a penalty every single time we will get to see them continue to fight for the next 2+ corners. Doesn't matter who did it, who does it, or who you are obsessed with as a driver. If you cant acknowledge that if we held the drivers to higher wheel to wheel/track limit standards like so many other series the racing would be better....idk. I am seriously sick of the "first lap incidents" too. The first lap is the most important...they are fully in control of the car in both dry and wet and know what they are doing. It's such trash.

MadMax
MadMax
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Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:23 am

Re: 2022 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Oct 28 - 30

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fourmula1 wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:38 pm
MadMax wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:01 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:31 pm
Yeah, Russell should be dropped IMHO. It’s one of those where those comments will probably come back to haunt him. He knows what he’s doing in scenarios like that and I’m half inclined to say it’s a Mercedes way of driver coaching, with being ‘alongside’ and having rights to a corner.

Imagine what he would be saying if the shoe was on the other foot and he gets pushed out wide. Probably the only reason he didn’t complain was because it was his team mate who did it.
S'funny, but it seems more like a Red Bull way - "let them race, Michael!" :lol:
Watch the start of race into T1. That is the definition of side by side. If you make this a penalty every single time we will get to see them continue to fight for the next 2+ corners. Doesn't matter who did it, who does it, or who you are obsessed with as a driver. If you cant acknowledge that if we held the drivers to higher wheel to wheel/track limit standards like so many other series the racing would be better....idk. I am seriously sick of the "first lap incidents" too. The first lap is the most important...they are fully in control of the car in both dry and wet and know what they are doing. It's such trash.
In your example, Max knew that forcing himself in to the side of Lewis like that was fairly low risk for the title race. If that had been someone not in the title race, he'd have been more circumspect. Same thing at Monza where Ricciardo was given room in the first chicane but in the same situation later in the race, Hamilton was rammed.

But apparently it's "the Mercedes way". :lol:

What you generally tend to find is that drivers do it differently depending on who the other driver is and their relative stakes in the title.

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dans79
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Location: USA

Re: 2022 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Oct 28 - 30

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MadMax wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:46 pm
What you generally tend to find is that drivers do it differently depending on who the other driver is and their relative stakes in the title.
And how much they like/dislike the other driver. I know if I was on the track, I'd give certain drivers a real hard time.
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AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: 2022 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Oct 28 - 30

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:10 pm
MadMax wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:46 pm
What you generally tend to find is that drivers do it differently depending on who the other driver is and their relative stakes in the title.
And how much they like/dislike the other driver. I know if I was on the track, I'd give certain drivers a real hard time.
So what's Magnussen's excuse? :lol:

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dans79
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Location: USA

Re: 2022 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Oct 28 - 30

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AR3-GP wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:14 pm
So what's Magnussen's excuse? :lol:
Maybe he is frustrated he isn't as good as his dad!
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fourmula1
fourmula1
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Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:22 pm

Re: 2022 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Oct 28 - 30

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MadMax wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:46 pm
fourmula1 wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:38 pm
MadMax wrote:
Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:01 pm


S'funny, but it seems more like a Red Bull way - "let them race, Michael!" :lol:
Watch the start of race into T1. That is the definition of side by side. If you make this a penalty every single time we will get to see them continue to fight for the next 2+ corners. Doesn't matter who did it, who does it, or who you are obsessed with as a driver. If you cant acknowledge that if we held the drivers to higher wheel to wheel/track limit standards like so many other series the racing would be better....idk. I am seriously sick of the "first lap incidents" too. The first lap is the most important...they are fully in control of the car in both dry and wet and know what they are doing. It's such trash.
In your example, Max knew that forcing himself in to the side of Lewis like that was fairly low risk for the title race. If that had been someone not in the title race, he'd have been more circumspect. Same thing at Monza where Ricciardo was given room in the first chicane but in the same situation later in the race, Hamilton was rammed.

But apparently it's "the Mercedes way". :lol:

What you generally tend to find is that drivers do it differently depending on who the other driver is and their relative stakes in the title.
Certainly they weigh the risk as it relates to damage, dnf, points etc. That is because they are allowed to drive like this. They all have done it and all will do it if it is allowed. It ruins the racing in my opinion.